auto bail out

  • Thread startermuleman
  • Start date
As north americans we all have some blame at the mess we`re in .We all want everthing cheap, why does wal-mart do so well.Buying over in china on the cheap selling here.Not to mention corp greed. And the real kicker is has any laws been past to stop this from happening again.
 
Prepackage Ch 11 - Just like the airlines. The government could underwrite consumer warranties, if desired.
 
yes stacy the intresting thing ive learned about wal mart is theyve worked so hard to kill off their competition that they now control the market
It may be cheap at Wal Mart but their margins are higher than anyone elses.Since they contol the market if you want to whol;esale your product to them they send their accountantsa to your office go over your books and they decide how much margin you can live with.Free enterprise?????? bullshit!! Screw Wal Mart!!1
 
They are taking this money as a loan the way I understand it and they have to be turned around in three months or else they are into filing chapter11. So how in the hell can you turn a industry like GM around in three months besides shutting plants down laying people off and cutting salary and should I say from the top is where it needs to be hacked so I dont know but it sure seems like they are bound for chapter 11 with layoffs anyway and plant closings. Anyway Bush dont have to worry as it will be laid in Obamas lap to deal with.
 
stacy-swf said:
As north americans we all have some blame at the mess we`re in .We all want everthing cheap, why does wal-mart do so well.Buying over in china on the cheap selling here.Not to mention corp greed. And the real kicker is has any laws been past to stop this from happening again.

i beg to differ. SUV sales peaking for nearly a decade prior to the crisis. high cost of hospital care, and high cost of military related spending would never happen in a cheap society. the reason walmart did well here is because most americans live from paycheck to paycheck and can afford few luxuries. a walmart furnished home is in many cases better than what some people are used to... thats life.
corp greed is true but it vails the uglier truth that corporations represent lots of little beings running or working for them. PEOPLE! this is the legacy of MAN as a whole. each and everyone of us has the potential to swindle and were we in their shoes we would do the same.
 
It seems to me that everyone here is jumping all over the unions. While no one has mentioned the fact the CEO's and presidents and vice-preidents, and CFO's are making a lot more than any auto worker ever has or will. These companies under-perform and they still get million dollar bonuses.

The bottom line is that american made cars have for many years now been crap when comapred to foregin made(even when made here) cars.

The Bailout will happen we can't allow them to fail...they're just too involved in the economy...think of all the companies that supply the auto industry. It would create a ripple effect like we've never seen.
 
Offhand I have two problems with the auto bailout (or loan). First, it is a short term fix and they will almost surely be back in a few months for more. And then more and more and more. Hey what the hell, the UAW's best friends will be in control soon. Barney Frank who unfortunately is the congressman of my district, has said that "the days of union busting are now over".

Which brings me to my other concern. How do you justify to the average worker in this country that he has to subsidize workers who make 150% more than he does?

You all know how government works. You build a bridge that will cost one million and then ten million later you find it will cost another twenty million and you can't stop now because you have ten million already invested in it. They are sucking us in with this 15 billion figure and it will solve nothing.

I agree with Ro. They have to downsize. They are making too many cars just like the home builders were making too many houses. The easiest and fastest way to downsize is to go bankrupt and restructure. Too many people think going bankrupt means you go out of business and all the people lose their jobs. That is not always so and would not be the case in this instance.

And Mule is right. Now the government will be calling the shots with the financial industry. Do we want them calling the shots with the auto industry too? They are already talking about an "Auto Industry Czar". If you think Detroit is making cars that nobody wants now, wait till the Gov makes them build little ugly death trap cars like they have in Europe. Although on second thought we may have to buy them since the new Energy Czar that Obama just picked wants gas to be the same price as in Europe.

Norm
 
SaltandPepper98 said:
Offhand I have two problems with the auto bailout (or loan). First, it is a short term fix and they will almost surely be back in a few months for more. And then more and more and more. Hey what the hell, the UAW's best friends will be in control soon. Barney Frank who unfortunately is the congressman of my district, has said that "the days of union busting are now over".

Which brings me to my other concern. How do you justify to the average worker in this country that he has to subsidize workers who make 150% more than he does?

You all know how government works. You build a bridge that will cost one million and then ten million later you find it will cost another twenty million and you can't stop now because you have ten million already invested in it. They are sucking us in with this 15 billion figure and it will solve nothing.

I agree with Ro. They have to downsize. They are making too many cars just like the home builders were making too many houses. The easiest and fastest way to downsize is to go bankrupt and restructure. Too many people think going bankrupt means you go out of business and all the people lose their jobs. That is not always so and would not be the case in this instance.

And Mule is right. Now the government will be calling the shots with the financial industry. Do we want them calling the shots with the auto industry too? They are already talking about an "Auto Industry Czar". If you think Detroit is making cars that nobody wants now, wait till the Gov makes them build little ugly death trap cars like they have in Europe. Although on second thought we may have to buy them since the new Energy Czar that Obama just picked wants gas to be the same price as in Europe.

Norm

I don't think government takeover is always horrific thing. Ideally, in a democratic setting a government ran auto manufacturing industry would probably produce cars that were more desirable to the voter lol. I'll vote for whomever pushes to create a 5-cyl Landrover Hybrid that gets 35miles/gal hwy and costs 20K total, without anymore fuel efficiency incentive paperwork :clap:.
But of course we all know that would be horrible because government is bad and its better to let the auto industry and the gas industry freely work together to produce vehicles that they think will be best for us :wtf: wait a sec :wtf: wasn't that what happened prior to the bail out? Oh, well I guess that's just wishful thinking.
Greed is good, greed is safe, but greed tends to take a very controversial path toward success. Fair competition is good until greed grows out of it and taints the atmosphere.
The industry falling over is classified as a CATASTROPHE because of the heavy toll it will have on society. We've already discussed on why it will have such a terrible impact on the economy as a whole, by sucking in related industries. The same way, if you have a funny taste in your mouth you will ignore it. If your whole community has a funny taste in their mouths, then your local or state government will get involved. But if 3 MILLION people report they have a funny taste in their mouths then it is a BIG DEAL... MUCH taxpayer money will be used to investigate and deal with the issue. Out of that there may come mass unrest and fear. federal agents would be everywhere because this would be seen as a potential CATASTROPE until it is resolved.
This is the nature of the relationship between numbers and government in the context of a personal problem. It is subject that humanity can only trace to it's immediate past because our populace has only recently exploded. Large numbers of layoffs from the auto sector AND related industries (especially in a bad economy where overall job growth is minimal) would thus be classified as requiring federal intervention. :bitch:
 
I don't for one second believe that a government that can't run a post office efficiently can make cars better than a car company anymore than they can find oil better than an oil company. How many barrels of oil has the Energy Dept found after all.

A company makes the products people want or they go bankrupt. And should go bankrupt. That's what has happened to the AMERICAN car companies. They made too many cars that people didn't want. At least at the price that Detroit needed to get. The sweetheart retirement benefits that they never should have agreed to finally came home to roost and now they have to pay the price.

And don't give me the scare tactics because I for one don't believe them. Sure some folks will get laid off because the entire industry has to downsize. BUT NOT ALL OF THEM! And most all will get other jobs albeit at more average pay and benefits.

I find it difficult to believe that there are people so naive in this world that they think that a bunch of bureaucrats can run/control private industry. Even after seeing examples of what happens when government controls industry such as in the old East and West Germany or North and South Korea. You couldn't come up with better lab experiments than taking a country of one people/race and cutting it in half and having the government run things in one and private industry run things in the other.

I'm guessing that Toyota and Honda would love the government to control what cars are made in Detroit.
 
SaltandPepper98 said:
I don't for one second believe that a government that can't run a post office efficiently can make cars better than a car company anymore than they can find oil better than an oil company. How many barrels of oil has the Energy Dept found after all.

You may be right but these people disagree with you regarding the postal service, comparing it to more private competitors:
Overnight Shipping: FedEx vs UPS vs The Postal Service

And correct me if I'm wrong but the Dept of Energy isn't in the business of oil excavation... rather it babysits companies who are.

SaltandPepper98 said:
A company makes the products people want or they go bankrupt. And should go bankrupt. That's what has happened to the AMERICAN car companies. They made too many cars that people didn't want. At least at the price that Detroit needed to get. The sweetheart retirement benefits that they never should have agreed to finally came home to roost and now they have to pay the price.

I totally agree that a company should go bankrupt in this scenario and that isn't what I'm disputing. I'm disputing the large numbers of people this would effect under the dim light of a global recession. There are jobs but these jobs are few and pay less and this in turn will have an effect on each of these people paying their bills. After all, if you go from making 55K/yr down to 25k/yr, chances are this will screw up your finances including car payments, mortgage, and other things. And this is the best case scenario because most of these people will file unemployment anyways, which in the end also takes tax payer money.
The truth is this gigantic government-led action would probably force these companies to recreate a new manufacturing sector in the US, to supply not only the best fuel efficient cars out there but also new technologies that will help us meet the new energy needs for the 21st century. Without a manufacturing sector we are doomed to solidify second class national status. Like developing countries prior to 1990 that sold their raw materials to the west and imported them back in the form of an expensive, finished product. More money would leave than coming back and this will be disastrous in the long run.

SaltandPepper98 said:
And don't give me the scare tactics because I for one don't believe them. Sure some folks will get laid off because the entire industry has to downsize. BUT NOT ALL OF THEM! And most all will get other jobs albeit at more average pay and benefits.

Optimistic! My earlier paragraph combats this part.

SaltandPepper98 said:
I find it difficult to believe that there are people so naive in this world that they think that a bunch of bureaucrats can run/control private industry. Even after seeing examples of what happens when government controls industry such as in the old East and West Germany or North and South Korea. You couldn't come up with better lab experiments than taking a country of one people/race and cutting it in half and having the government run things in one and private industry run things in the other.

True but we're a democracy--they're not (or weren't). We have say in how our government runs the last i checked. Furthermore, it would not be a complete take over of the auto industry..but rather an improvement of it since it seems to be unable to accomplish that by itself. Yeah it sucks ass that the government has to get involved but I assure you south korea, west germany, and any nation you can cite will have government involvement and regulation if it's economy is at risk.

SaltandPepper98 said:
I'm guessing that Toyota and Honda would love the government to control what cars are made in Detroit.

I doubt it--since government involvement is likely to SAVE those companies...i don't think you thought that question out too well. Furthermore, those two companies are approaching their own governments for some form of aide as well.
 
Sorry BOSB but that article doesn't prove your point to me at all. It said that the only area that the Postal Service beat UPS and FEDEX in overnight delivery (which it couldn't even guarantee) was price. And I believe that is because it subsidizes that part of the business from the parts of the business that is government protected from competition.

Getting 42 cents to send a letter across the street and 42 cents to send a letter across the country is not efficient. And using the same cubbyhole and sack system that Ben Franklin invented doesn't give me much hope of it ever really competing on its own in the near future either.

As usual, if the Postal Service had to become private and compete it would have to downsize and lower pay and benefits. Anything else is would be just another taxpayer subsidy.
 
blkoralslaveboy said:
I doubt it--since government involvement is likely to SAVE those companies...i don't think you thought that question out too well. Furthermore, those two companies are approaching their own governments for some form of aide as well.

Ok my friend I have thought that over again.

Lets say I am Toyota. I want the Detroit auto industry "saved" because first, it will keep the auto parts industry such as Johnson Controls, Delphi etc. in business and I want them in business because THEY ALSO SELL PARTS TO ME FOR MY CARS!

Second, I want the Government to use a carrot and stick approach in dealing with Detroit. I want them to tell Detroit "If you want more money, you make the types of cars we want you to make". Because you see BOSB, I know that Detroit couldn't compete with me before because of their costs and now that the Government is in effect a partner, they will have a much less chance of competing with me. But if Detroit goes completely under, how will my potential customers compare my superior product if there is nothing to compare it with?

And if the Gov bailout does indeed "save millions and millions and millions" of jobs, well, that's just dandy for me since they were buying MY cars to begin with and now they can continue to do so.

No, I stand by what I said. (unless of course Ro comes in and kicks my ass and proves me wrong again in which case I will agree with her) I don't believe Toyota or Honda want the Detroit auto industry to go under. If they go into bankruptcy and restructure and come out of it lean and mean from restructuring those union contracts, then Toyota and Honda will have something to worry about. They will for the first time have real competition. After all, say what you will about American cars, they still have the best styling and the quality is now on par with the Japanese. They are just not a good value at the price Detroit needs to get for them.

Norm
 
I think the bail out is a bunch of bull. If you look at were the money is going there is a lot of pork on special projects being spent. Lets not even begin to talk about the money being paid to employees who's jobs were automated. Those employees didn't have to go out and get a new job because they are still being paid a major portion of their salary, plus getting health benefits. If they wanted to be fair to those employees they would have given them a healthy severance package and helped them get retrained so that they could be healthy happy productive citizens again instead of being lead down the path of entitlement state of mind. It is true that companies who make bad decisions have to go bankrupt and that is a system that has been in place for years and years and years so why now do we need to fix it. Especially when the CEO's are making huge bonuses. Its like our legislators who automatically get a pay raise every year unless they vote not to get one please. Our country is being run by a bunch of hypocrites who have never run anything and are not held to any kind of standards. They should be held accountable for everything they do. Think about it if they wanted to stimulate the economy they could give each and every family $500,000.00 and require them to pay off their debts before spending it on anything else, or go to jail. That would be money far better spent and it would stimulate the economy and not cost as much. Not to mention it would not put a huge amount of Tax Payer money into the hands of a small group who have already proven themselves unable to handle the money in the first place.
Just a thought
 
Actually salt, for the most part I agree with you.

Except(you knew this was coming,lol) you have to remember that the foreign car makers receive govt. subsidies in the form of health care, protectionist trade policies, etc.
And that US cars are already priced lower than their foreign counterparts.
The trouble is and has been the overemphasis on SUV and large car sales, enabled by lack of CAFE standards for the SUV's and trucks, a gift from congress fro the last 20 years. One which enabled the domestic carmakers to pursue a short term marketing strategy that was doomed to failure from it's inception.
 
SaltandPepper98 said:
Sorry BOSB but that article doesn't prove your point to me at all. It said that the only area that the Postal Service beat UPS and FEDEX in overnight delivery (which it couldn't even guarantee) was price. And I believe that is because it subsidizes that part of the business from the parts of the business that is government protected from competition.

Getting 42 cents to send a letter across the street and 42 cents to send a letter across the country is not efficient. And using the same cubbyhole and sack system that Ben Franklin invented doesn't give me much hope of it ever really competing on its own in the near future either.

As usual, if the Postal Service had to become private and compete it would have to downsize and lower pay and benefits. Anything else is would be just another taxpayer subsidy.
I really don't know what more you could want! The packages reached their destinations in the correct (or acceptable) amounts of time for far less money in some cases. If the USPS wanted it could match the prices of UPS and probably make a profit or re-invest to run things more efficiently. Were that the case do you think FEDEX an UPS are going to keep things as they are? NOPE price hike for their management bonuses and pay raise.

Yes we can all complain about how low prices suck and that it isn't fair that the government isn't turning the USPS over to some price gauging bunch of money out the ass old pipe hounds and their sharp 26 year old "fuck you old man, i'm smart" corporate executive peons to drive up the to cost to make a profit. Till we bail them out too.
 
SaltandPepper98 said:
Ok my friend I have thought that over again.

Lets say I am Toyota. I want the Detroit auto industry "saved" because first, it will keep the auto parts industry such as Johnson Controls, Delphi etc. in business and I want them in business because THEY ALSO SELL PARTS TO ME FOR MY CARS!

Second, I want the Government to use a carrot and stick approach in dealing with Detroit. I want them to tell Detroit "If you want more money, you make the types of cars we want you to make". Because you see BOSB, I know that Detroit couldn't compete with me before because of their costs and now that the Government is in effect a partner, they will have a much less chance of competing with me. But if Detroit goes completely under, how will my potential customers compare my superior product if there is nothing to compare it with?

And if the Gov bailout does indeed "save millions and millions and millions" of jobs, well, that's just dandy for me since they were buying MY cars to begin with and now they can continue to do so.

No, I stand by what I said. (unless of course Ro comes in and kicks my ass and proves me wrong again in which case I will agree with her) I don't believe Toyota or Honda want the Detroit auto industry to go under. If they go into bankruptcy and restructure and come out of it lean and mean from restructuring those union contracts, then Toyota and Honda will have something to worry about. They will for the first time have real competition. After all, say what you will about American cars, they still have the best styling and the quality is now on par with the Japanese. They are just not a good value at the price Detroit needs to get for them.

Norm

Congrats! Ro :)bowdown:) has endorsed you. I do believe your view of government is quite one dimensional and, from what i gather, resembles the government of Armenia sometime around 1960. First off, we're a democracy so if the government will always have SOME kind of accountability. If it does something wrong and we re-elect those responsible, then technically we approved of their mistake as a whole. That might be the flaw within (i.e. IRAQ).
Next, if the government does decide to go through and push these dying companies to not only make better, more fuel efficient, more cost effective cars and parts, but also implement a manufacture base for new wind and solar technology, and other things to diversify their company portfolio, honda and toyota will follow--not gloat. Yeah then they will be hurting someone else who manufactures these things, but in a good way, forcing them to compete. But I don't disagree that SOME downsizing might be a good idea. But I'm still looking at the larger picture of economic impact. Times are really, really, really bad and I don't think you're really thinking of everything as a whole.
 
"If you need a letter or package delivered faster than next-day, FedEx and UPS have the edge. Both offer same-day service and delivery first thing next morning. All the Postal Service can do is promise delivery by sometime the following business day, depending on destination and shipping time."

The above is from the conclusion part of your article. USPS is cheaper not better. And you get what you pay for. The italics on the last six words of the last sentence are mine. The only thing USPS beat Fedex and UPS in was price. That is because USPS won't guarantee that it will get there the next day without a lot of bullshit rules.

Nobody sends anything "next day" unless they actually have to have it there on the next day. You might save money using USPS for next day but it might not get there on the next day. It WILL with Fedex or UPS.

Also you have to bring your next day package to the post office. Our business sends about 40 packages a day out all kinds of ways. Air, 2nd day, next day, you name it. Fedex and UPS stop by every day like clockwork and pick them up. We have open accounts with them. Can you do that with USPS? I don't know, maybe. But again, you get what you pay for. Unless you are a taxpayer. Then you overpay to keep the USPS running in order to deliver snail mail because that is all they are good for.

Your article basically says to me that if I want quality and speed go UPS or Fedex. If I want good enough quality and speed most of the time and I want to take a chance on the package not arriving in order to save some money go USPS.

On occasion we have customers whose manufacturing lines go down due to running out of parts. That is a cost to them sometimes in excess of $500 an hour while the line is down. (All thanks to JIT manufacturing but that is another argument) They want parts ASAP. Believe me we do not send via a government operation. We would save money but it is not worth it because we can't trust them.

There is very little outside of Defense and infrastructure that the Gov can do that private industry can't do better, faster and cheaper. And that certainly includes telling the Auto Industry what kind of cars IT wants the consumer to buy.
 
RoSquirts said:
Actually salt, for the most part I agree with you.

Whew


By the way Ro, when you say the foreign car makers, do you mean Detroit? What percentage of the big 3's cars are actually made in this country? I know many are made in Mexico and Canada and even those said to be made here I am sure have many parts made overseas. Even parts gotten from domestic auto parts manufacturers must have some overseas parts in the parts.(?) I wonder just what percentage of the average "domestically" assembled car is actually American. I know that no car company has wrapped itself in the American flag as much as Chevy. I wonder what percentage of the Silverado is made here?