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  • #141
I will only say that most people change gradually overtime which seems the case here. This change in life which affects us all as we age sometimes grows couples closer and other times they slowly grow apart until realization hits with often it being too late.

From a logical view it does indeed hurt to see hormones take affect over reality. The need for balance trampled over with the need for enraptured hormonal release with red flags a waving.

We each are free to decide our own course in life. however when the masses cry foul it may indeed prove of value to take a two week vacation from Paul with the both of you to clear your heads and see where you each stand. Now if Sue would not agree to even this small request then there you go.......,

Steve if you cannot even bring yourself to re boot with a hard pause then your in very deep here. Possibly too deep to see above the water-line. A PC running all the time needs to be re-booted from time to time.

This suggestion will help clear the air and allow you both to look at the situation more clearheaded than thru hormonal prisms.
 
  • #142
So aptly put Manon. And yes it indeed surprises the heck out of me when Sue doesn't even takes a pause as far as her relationship with Paul is concerned. And STB believes her when she says it's physical only. No it's not. Can't you see STB that although you are having a rough spot by your and her admission, she doesn't even thinks twice, rather asks - "You don't think I would stop seeing Paul?". She should have been concerned about your state - on the contrary we see a woman who is concerned more about her satisfaction and her relationship with Paul. STB, we all want you to listen to us because we can see the road it's leading to, but you in your sexual daze cannot.

At one point of time, readers used to say that communication amongst you is excellent. If this is what you call as communication then I don't have anything to say.

Squirm, do you still believe that you can separate physical and emotional intimacy? Was it the case with STB? Could Sue compartmentalize? You see theories such as you believe in don't stand the test of time. By their own admission, their relationship has changed.

Tell me honestly, is it such a big deal for Sue to take a break? Is it such a big deal for her to shower her affection on you for a week or two? Is it such a big deal to let go of all fantasies and be real for a while? It seems it is. And if it is a big deal then your relationship is already gone beyond salvage.
 
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  • #143
My two cents....

Steve,

I would like to congratulate you for spending this week reflecting on your own desires, needs and overall preferences in association with what now seems to be a greater level of honesty and openness with Sue during your multiple conversations.

You are correct that many within this group will give you the "see we warned you" and in many ways will condemn you in their own respective ways. Those that have never truly explored or had the desire to be the beta/sub within the relationship truly cannot relate to what your are feeling. As “Manon” said this evening, people change gradually overtime which seems the case here. This is the case in EVERY relationship (married or unmarried) and over that time a couple will either find what bonds them in turn allowing them to continue to grow even closer together over time while on the flip side, a couple can also slowly grow apart. This time in your life is about the time when most divorces happen as the nest become empty although I believe that you and Sue have found a way to continue your bond, your connection, your intimacy in so many different ways.

As far as the so-called balance that everyone speaks about. You do not need to be equals within a relationship/marriage to have a true balance. With that said, I would continue to strongly recommend that your serious discussions take place outside of the bedroom in a non-sexual environment as to reduce the so-called hormone effect on your respective decisions.

Something that “Manon” did mention which is something that many of us have suggested in the past, something that even I would also recommend is that you and Sue do take the occasional vacation (weekend) away for one on one time without the influence of Paul. This allows time for reconnecting even if you and Sue continue to refrain from bare intercourse during those vacations.

As far as those that have suggested hit the reboot or stopping the current adventures; while I can see their reasoning for it, it is my belief that something so drastic at this stage would be only something that you and Sue could determine as I have a feeling that your both deeper into this journey than any of us on the forum realize from what we have read so far.

Be cautious, keep the communication open and honest between you and Sue. Make sure that you both can have these talks in a non-judgmental manner and try not to allow any of us on this forum cloud your judgment. You are the only one that truly knows Sue and how your relationship is outside of what you have posted on this forum.

As you know we all have our viewpoints, continue to reflect and enjoy your journey.

Thank you for your continued sharing with the group.
 
  • #144
Steve. No one knows the situation better than u, so if this is what u want, go for it.

Sounds like u want to go to the next level and take it more extreme, but are fearful of the fallout. One way to resolve this could be to focus on maintaining a sense of balance. ie. Balance the extremes.

For physical balance try planning more extreme, but very short, physical reconnects. Periodically, plan a 1-2 day sabbatical where u two go away, fuck like rabbits (bareback) and totally reconnect sexually. Hopefully, this will set the stage for letting things go even farther with the physically separating part of the game.

For emotional balance (eg counter any added emotional bonds that come with any extended physical time), try more extreme dating. Do u guys still go out on "dates"? If those are fun and emotionally bonding then ur partway there already. Try doing weekly, bi-weekly "special dates". eg Couples message, special restaurant, dinner cruise, dance lessons, theme evening, zip lining etc.

In addition to balancing physical and emotion individually, u can try expanding emotional connection to balance the physical disconnection that will come with ramping up the game.

Just some thoughts
 
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  • #145
Steve your last couple of post are a little confusing to me. You have spent tons of time talking about your (and Sues for that matter) justification to continue your use of condoms and denial of you cumming in her but also you keep hinting at more. While I may see plenty of issues in a lot of the things you and Sue do I don't see a big issue in your using a condom as long as your actually getting to have sex with her. As you both have stated allowing Paul exclusive access to her bare is a great gift for all of you all. However if the plan is now your going to be denied having intercourse at all for longer periods than I would see that as a big issue.

Is the plan to cut off intercourse all together for some period of time? Maybe I am reading it wrong.

I mentioned in an early post that it seems like you two are both on board with you being the beta guy in her life sexually but how that actually looks and works seems like you two might have different ideas about.

I know you write what you say but do ever truly read what you say?
 
  • #146
Golfman,

I would agree with you that there are conflicting and confusing post. It would seem that there has been mentioned of “tons” of time talking between Steve and Sue although with the most recent issue between Steve and Sue which seems to now be resolved, this likely could have been avoided with a deeper level of communication between the two of them so that they BOTH were clear on what the other expected and or intended by statements and expressed desires.

With Steve’s most recent series of post this week it would seem that the issues of miscommunication were it comes to expected verses unexpected intentions and resulting consequences have since been resolved through a deeper level of communication.

You and I are do indeed appear to be on the same page when it comes to the belief that based on Steve’s post that he and Sue are both on board with Steve being the beta guy within the sexual since when it comes to the marriage. We both would agree that leading up to the most recent issues between the two of them, that Steve and Sue may have actually been approaching the adventure, the journey with very different ideas.

It will be interesting to see how Steve responds to your inquiry about various aspects of denial.

It would also seem that we are all concerned about the overall relationship at this point.
 
  • #147
@ Squirm, Squirm at one point of time in this thread, you stated that denial may lead to higher level of intimacy or communication while I thought otherwise. What do you think now? Has it happened in the case of Sue and STB? Or has the reverse happened ? We all thought that they were having excellent communication...but how do you go from excellent communication to mis-understanding each other in no time. Given Sue's current disposition, do you really think that STB being beta is a good option right now..? It's not about being right or wrong. It's just that I want to know what do you think now?
 
  • #148
Soon after Sue started seeing Robert (or maybe just before), she told you that she wanted to experience a full blown love affair and as the best endowed man she had ever encountered he seemed the ideal lover. Unfortunately Robert didn’t want to play that game but, as new admissions have revealed, Sue continued the ideal in her head. I see Paul as providing the love affair that she wanted then.

On another tack, I think that you could intensify your beta experience by having your wife bareback occasionally. On the fairly sparse occasions that you are allowed intercourse it feels wonderful and leaves you satisfied but as you say condom sex is now the norm and you have forgotten exactly how much better skin on skin feels. Your sacrifice is now more theoretical than real. If you had more recent experience of how much better it feels then you would constantly be more intensely aware of what you are giving up. Such a tactic would also break the long unbroken run of Paul enjoying bareback exclusivity which I think lies at the root of your current problems.

Finally I think you should cash your bareback coupon fairly quickly because in light of current developments, I fear there may be an expiry date in the small print.
 
  • #149
STB: I just spent a day reviewing your posts of Sue with Paul. A couple things to note.

Sue went on her first date with Paul in September 2014. Paul ended up having sex with Sue about 10 times with a condom, before Sue tested Paul and allowed bare sex with Paul in late October. By the end of 2014, Paul had come inside Sue's pussy another 30-35 times, while STB had bare sex with Sue about 25 times. It was December 2014 when STB and Paul had a talk about Paul being the primary sex partner for Sue and STB being denied bare sex with Sue.

In 2015, Paul had bare sex with Sue about 175 times, while STB had sex with Sue about 42 times. Of those times I can discern what happened, STB had bare sex with Sue 7 times. You have quite a ways to go with your first "anniversary" from bare sex. I read that STB had bare sex with Sue once in May, 4 times in June, and finally twice on July 11th. Since that time STB has had condom protected sex with Sue.

Throughout all of this time period, Sue has repeatedly asked STB if he was "OK", "sure if this is what you wanted", and finally, "what did you expect to happen". For the most part, I see a lot of communication between Sue and STB, and STB keeps expressing his beta desires, and agreeing to whatever Sue has proposed. There have been times of disagreement, STB getting sulky, Sue getting moody, but every time they seem to talk it out and get back on an even keel.

The disagreement the past several weeks seems to have been about Sue promising STB some alone time for the two of them. Due to some scheduling conflict, Sue injected Paul into the weekend that STB thought would be solely his and Sue's time alone. I believe Sue, in her horniness, forgot her promise, or maybe thought by having sex with Paul, and being "wet and warm" it would enhance STB's arousal for her. It kind of blew up in her face, and STB was probably hurt, and rightfully. They seem to have taken some time away from Paul, to discuss in great detail what is occurring, and what they expect to occur.

I am not in the gloom and doom camp as I see STB and Sue going back to talking, and working on the relationship. Back in January 2015, Sue made the comment, and STB agreed, that sex between Sue and STB about once a week was satisfactory. STB agreed. If the numbers are any indication, that nearly occurred in 2015, and so far, in 2016, are holding up. I have discerned that STB and Sue have had sex, with a condom, 6 times so far this year.

From your recent posts, you can still rock Sue's world, even with a condom, and you both seem to be enjoying this triangle relationship with Paul. However, you still need to have re-connection time, without Paul. I can see that Sue being with Paul adds to STB's arousal, and keeps him hard. However, a married couple still needs some intimate time alone, for the relationship to remain solid - do not neglect your wife, and "don't" let your wife neglect you. Sue can have Paul, and you at the same time, she just needs to give you both intimate, alone time, in separate amounts so that you feel cherished, but can enjoy Sue's time with Paul as well.
 
  • #150
raksdeer said:
@ Squirm, Squirm at one point of time in this thread, you stated that denial may lead to higher level of intimacy or communication while I thought otherwise. What do you think now? Has it happened in the case of Sue and STB? Or has the reverse happened ? We all thought that they were having excellent communication...but how do you go from excellent communication to mis-understanding each other in no time. Given Sue's current disposition, do you really think that STB being beta is a good option right now..? It's not about being right or wrong. It's just that I want to know what do you think now?
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Rak,

I appreciate your inquiry. I have always stated and still believe through my own personal experience that various level of denial can lead to a higher level of intimacy and greater communication.

As to your question as how it relates to Steve and Sue. Yes we ALL thought that Steve and Sue were having what many would consider Excellent Communication as you have phrased it although it would seem that there level of communication still was not truly honest and open communication as a good bit of the communication in which Steve has conveyed to the group has typically only happened in a sexual setting and therefore happened when he was thinking with the “wrong head” allowing for hormones to take the lead in the conversation in turn clouds the overall situation. Based on the most recent incident, it truly appears that there had not been truly open, detailed and honest communication about their respective desires and what the over expectations were by both Steve and Sue which in turn lead to miss-understanding by each of them. Sue had seemingly moved forward in treating the extended adventures as more of the norm, making this part of a lifestyle choice while it would appear that Steve was not quite on the same page with Sue.

Steve truly needs to sit back have self reflection on what has happened, the history he and Sue share together, determine what HE would truly like and how he would truly like to be moving forward. To answer your question more specifically about if I really think that STB being beta is a good options right now. It is clear that Sue is all in for treating this as a lifestyle choice as a couple although the question comes down to does Steve also want this to be a lifestyle choice or has he been seeing this as a game with a clear end point. To answer your question, I think if Steve is committed to being the beta and is going to embrace it as a lifestyle choice than he and Sue truly need to sit down in a non-sexual setting and put all the cards on the table. I believe that Steve continues to still hold on to aspects of his prior Alpha side which is causing a bit of an issue with his transition to embracing his expressed sexual beta desires.

In many ways, Sue given Steve the experience he initially requested, he may not quite see it that way although this is the point where self reflection and a very deep level discussion really should be happening between the two of them. They are at the point of committing to this as a lifestyle choice for the next chapter in life together or chalk it up to an extended role-play (game) experience that is now ready for another transition. Should Steve reclaim his Alpha side or continue down the path of a beta.

No matter what they decide as a couple, I truly do wish them both the best of luck as this can be a very difficult experience for anyone.
 
  • #151
Squirm, Truly appreciate you taking time to reply to my query.

My contention was only that since Sue has not been "apparently" honest with STB, shouldn't they reset the relationship? Do you think that if they continue on this path together (with the mindset that they are having right now) wouldn't sue develop a strong bond with Paul ..stronger than she has with Steve? Isn't there a risk involved? Consider the current circumstance for a moment and then can we say that yes, they can proceed on this path without any risk whatsoever. If a couple as communicative as them can fall into trap of miss-understanding, I don't know how they can risk taking this game to another level. Just my two bits.
 
  • #152
raksdeer said:
Squirm, Truly appreciate you taking time to reply to my query.

My contention was only that since Sue has not been "apparently" honest with STB, shouldn't they reset the relationship? Do you think that if they continue on this path together (with the mindset that they are having right now) wouldn't sue develop a strong bond with Paul ..stronger than she has with Steve? Isn't there a risk involved? Consider the current circumstance for a moment and then can we say that yes, they can proceed on this path without any risk whatsoever. If a couple as communicative as them can fall into trap of miss-understanding, I don't know how they can risk taking this game to another level. Just my two bits.
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Rak,

I would agree with you in many aspects. There was clearly a misunderstanding between Sue and Steve or Sue has not been as forward and honest with Steve has she should have been. I have a strong feeling that there has been a lot that has either not made it into the forum thread and or a lot that Sue has not yet shared openly with Steve. While all of us may suggest or recommend that Steve and Sue take a break from the sexual exploration with Paul while they (Sue & Steve) clarify their respective position individually and or as a couple it is my understanding based on what Steve posted that Sue is not open to suspending her sexual contact with Paul for any duration while they are going through this, Sue is only willing to reduce the time spent with Paul during this period of time.

It is very likely that Sue has already developed some level of emotional feelings for Paul, just as he may have with her creating a strong bond with between the two of them already. I would think that the history that Sue shares with Steve will keep the two of them bonded, strongly connected to the point that their relationship could handle the continued inclusion of Paul although I could be wrong. Has Paul truly replaced Steve as Sue’s primary sexual partner and if this is truly the case, is this something that Steve can live with? We are already more than a year into their variations of exclusivity when it comes to bare intercourse and if emotions are now involved and Sue has determined that she wants to keep Paul around as long as Paul is willing to commit to be around, would Steve be open to considering a Poly type relationship with the understanding that Paul here to stay or would Steve consider pulling the plug even if it means divorce. Either way, Sue and Steve really need to have a deep heart to heart discussion about the overall direction of their relationship. Steve and Sue may be beyond the point of no return and if Sue has more feelings for Paul than she is sharing with Steve, would Steve be open to taking the relationship to another level as I mentioned above or would this head the other direction as also mentioned above.

Maybe Paul has become much more than simply the human dildo to Sue and if so, this could go many different directions.

There is a LOT of risk involved, more so NOW than there was a year ago considering the current circumstance.
 
  • #153
Thanks Squirm for putting forth your views so openly.
 
  • #154
Steve,
I think you need a partial reset. At the moment between the three of you there is an imbalance of loving, passion and emotional support.

1. This denial thing has become a noose around your neck made worse by the fact that you don't recognise it. You continue to confuse beta with denial as if one implies the other. It doesn't and never did. You are addicted to the pain of it as it covers the gap it creates. You have the power to end it. Do so quickly.

2. Sue being 'faithful ' to Paul. He doesn't care. Never did. Sue needs to understand she can get what she wants from him while having meaningful sex with you too. She confuses your addiction to denial with your real needs.

3. Condoms. The fetish nature attached to these is blinding both of you. Using her sister as an example of permanent use is an apple and oranges argument. Sue's sister is the polar opposite in sexual terms. In no other area would Sue follow her lead. The fact is that Sue attached real feelings to coming inside her. You have proven again and again that you can match anything Paul can deliver as a one off on an equal playing field. Sue doesn't and shouldn't have to choose. She can have you both. To deny you bareback is to deny herself the same orgasms as she has with Paul.

4. Alpha. Sue has claimed it but is not using it responsibly. She is in charge of maintaining the loving relationship by deciding who and when. It is a hollow argument to confuse you wanting or expecting sex with her almost completely denying it.

As beta you can do less to force this issue but you have action that would force it if only you could see your addiction for what it truly is. USE THE BAREBACK VOUCHER. NOW.
 
  • #155
Peak - Steve may be taking a break from ALL of us on the forum.
 
  • #156
Can't blame him. I suspect the last few weeks has revealed more to him than he's comfortable with. Probably best to process it before sharing thoughts. I hope he's ok though.
 
  • #157
Can't blame him, its practically been a flamefest. If I were him I'd feel attacked too.
 
  • #158
It has only been only three days since Steve has last posted and he has over 1.5 pages of our collective input to catch-up on. It could be work/realization/others factors, such as talking with Sue or a collaboration of such weighing in on him.

Advisable we all chill some at this time-frame to allow him time to respond if he feels like it showing appreciation/respect to Steve.

Any others inputs without hearing from Steve, at this time, might be counter productive as generally more negative comments might come forth. Especially from the cheering section. )

People, in general, tend to go dark with unknowns and no input coming from the op.

Regards/respect to all. )
 
  • #159
LOL - I have thick skin by this time here. I won't go into our further discussions, whether I've confused beta with denial or whatever, it's something we are still sorting out. But I will say that I certainly don't feel any of the gloom and doom that some have posted here where it's urgent that I cum in her to symbolize something or other.

Last night was our usual Wednesday time together and she followed suit like last week - having not seen Paul in a few days I expected her to be a bit withdrawn but was pleasantly surprised when she shucked her robe last night and climbed into the bed next to me in some sexy lingerie. She teased me that I could "look but not touch" which she knew would turn me on. I won't share what we talked about for fear of being flamed some more here but I can say that we have reinforced that we are both getting more satisfaction out of my using condoms than would be if I were not. I can espouse more on our discussions but not now. What I did want to share was that by the time I was busy stroking away that she'd slid her panties off and was eager to let me watch her. Coupled with her teasing I was soon at the edge. I was surprised for a moment and then suddenly remembered what was happening when she leaned over and pushed my hand away and took my cock in her mouth. She took control a bit sooner than last time and this time she let me enjoy the feeling of her sucking me and bringing me fully to climax. I felt her hands cup my balls and even massage just below them a bit as I let go in her mouth. The thought that I was inside her and that I was feeling her bring me off was just awesome and I know that she sucked me until I stopped shivering and then, before she pulled off, she ran her thumb up the underside of my cock. I know I lay there loving the post-orgasm feeling and yes, knowing she was going to come up and snowball with me which she did eagerly. I don't know if you feel you can read much in the passion in a kiss but I know that I can with Sue and for me, the kiss did much to assuage some of the friction between us.

I do agree as I said that we are still going to better define what we each want out of what we're doing. Does she still want a "full blown affair" and is she confusing herself by trying to say it's not that? Do I want to cum in her again? If yes, when? How should sex be between us? Should I be an equal partner but be required to "go second" as a beta? Do I want her to deny me more? If yes, for how long? All things that seem easy to ask but are harder to answer. But for those who are concerned - the fact that we are talking about all of this - and that she is limiting her time with Paul to just once a week and for not that long - I think it all says a lot that she is concerned too and wants to be sure it's all going okay.

I will also say that we are going away skiing again, this time just Sue and I. Next weekend, the weekend after the Presidents/Valentines weekend - we are going to NY state this time, not VT. No, Paul will not be coming to see us when we are away ourselves. But yes, she is going to see him on Sunday, yes, for Valentines Day. It's a holiday that means a lot more to her than me and she said that she would like to do it as her Valentines gift to Paul - and yes too that it's for me too in that she said she wants to share with me when she gets home. How could I and why would I say no?
 
  • #160
Steve,
Please don't take my forceful comments the wrong way. I am so glad that you starting to formulate a strategy that makes sense to both of you (even if not to me) for the future. I think it was the blind headlong plunge that got to me most. I do like your compromise over Valentine's. I think it will satisfy all three of you. Good thing. Following that up with your own skiing weekend too. I'd still urge the voucher for then (can't help it, sorry) but I'm sure you'll both have great time either way. Thanks for the update.
 
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