Will & Eve said:
Me too. The GOP isn't far enough to the right for me!
Check that. By BOTH PARTIES. The Dems have been in charge for two years now - see any drastic measure to reduce the budget? Nuh-uh - nor will you. They are all buying votes hand over fist and as long as stupid voters keep selling their votes they will keep buying..
Don't be facetious. This argument that the Dems have been in power for 2 years is completely without merit and you know it. Unlike most people I'm sure you're aware of how our system works. So I'm not going to get into detail about threatened and actual vetoes, opposition party parliamentary maneuvers, the senate being split down the middle, etc. That nothing has been done in the past 2 years is a reflection on both parties. And now both are willing to grandstand and add 145 billion to the deficit for a measure that will do nothing to forestall an economic downturn. But it will give the masses a few hundred more dollars in their pockets for a week. Can we say 'bread and circuses'?
Will & Eve said:
Yup.
Here's something you might not know though - you know WHAT is going to cause that tax increase?
Social Security and Midecare.
They will break us in about 40 years, if not less, unless radical changes are made YESTERDAY
Now, who was it that proposed to make radical changes a few years ago and got shot down by the opposing party??? Hmmm....name escapes me.......
The defiicit we have now has nothing to do with Social Security and medicare. It has to do with excessive spending, reducing taxes for people that didn't need a tax reduction. Things like the administration lieing to congress and the people that a prescription drug bill wold cost 300 billion when in fact the adminstration KNEW it would cost over 550 billion. ( I think the actual number is coming in at around 700 billion but don't quote me on that)Trust me, we're in the group that benefited most from Bush's tax reductions. I didn't need nor want them. They had no effect on how much I spend, invest or pay anyone. Just more 'bread and circuses'
Will & Eve said:
Exponential math, not something that happened in a vacuum, and not something that was done with the consent of only one party. when you have Democrats and Republicans so deluded they thing the only way to hold power is to out-democrat the Democrats, it's a race to the bottom...
You can't have it both ways. In one instance, the dems had power for 2 years and did nothing. But when the repubs had absolute control of legislative and executive, you blame both parties? The worst earmarking of all time occured in those years, the biggest deficit spending of all time occured then.
Will & Eve said:
People can have liberty or security - seldom both. most of your fellow Americans choose security (rightly or wrongly) and if you choose liberty, you are a victim of their poor decision. Politicians, do not be fooled, give the people what they want or they lose their jobs. When Clinton gets in - as she almost certainly will - she'll do the exact same thing or worse. (After all, her husband used the IRS as a political tool to audit EVERY YEAR those who criticized him - betcha never heard THAT on NBC)....
Comparing IRS audits to the internal threats to our freedom is another facetious argument with no merit. Just slinging stones. Assuming what someone will do in the future as an argument to defend what someone has already actually done in tha past has no merit either.
Fact is, our liberties are at stake, the present administration and party has been complicit in this attack upon them. To ignore that is to ignore the fact.
Will & Eve said:
Man-made global warming is a myth, you've been lied to..
I'll save debating that for another thread, it would need it,lol
Will & Eve said:
McCain didn't run in 2004...though he would have if Kerry had accepted his offer to run as his VP...
Thanks for the correction, I was too lazy to clarify that and you're aware that the smear tactics occured in 2000. Regardless, they occured.
Will & Eve said:
No....I I'd hope you're not naive enough to think that only the Republicans are corrupt..
I hope you're not naive enough to think that the incidence of ******* corruption of the past 6 years hasn't been mostly Republican and that a party in power for far more likely to be corrupt than one that is not.
To state that it's not only the Republicans is a weak defense of corruption.
Will & Eve said:
Which works out to less than 40K a year. Interestingly, Saddam Hussein was killing 100K a year of his own people before we invaded. If we're going to base our decisions on that kind of math, then our invasion saved over 200,000 lives so far.
Why do you dwell on the last 8 years? Why not go ahead and include Rawanda?
Oh snap! that's right, that was Clinton ignoring the death..
I used the most conservative estimates of Iraqi deaths in my statement, not the ones that I actually beleive to be true. But it's more than a matter of math to me anyway.
I suppose your math comparison would have some merit if that was why we invaded Iraq in the first place. But it wasn't even on our radar screen of reasons to invade. It was all about WMD's, wasn't it?
And why do I dwell on the past 8 years. Because seeing people in this thread talk about voting on strictly Republican party lines is what this is all about. How, after the past 8 years of mismanagement anyone can still hold the party line for the Republicans completely escapes me. Perhaps if I thought any republican candidate could uphold true Republican values ( and I don't mean the freaking christian right ones), I could accept it. But Republicans have lost their way. Any American who votes based on party any more is blind to what's going on in the world and this country IMHO.
Will & Eve said:
Yeah, and the fascinating thing is that liberals love globalisn and the U.N.....yet the U.N. has - with far more resources and legal athority - done fuck-all about the things you bring up. Why is it okay to bash Bush for that and not the U.N.?
Oh, and BTW, the death in the nations you mention is as a result of secterian fighting - the EXACT SAME short of shit that is making Iraq so troublesome. so if we supposedly can't wipe our ass in Iraq, why on earth would you want us to NOT be there but instead go to some other fucked up place?.
I'ts OK to bash Bush because we're not discussing an election of UN officials. We're discussing a US presidential election and I'm debating people that insist on taking party lines in determining their vote even in light of what the controlling party of the past 8 years has accomplished, or not accomplished.
Will & Eve said:
And all that's beside the point that this ain't got a damn thing to do with abortion.
I seem to recall the left was telling me the only reason for the war was to control the price of oil....where did that particular fairy tale end up?
Gosh, how come no one thought of that when they were spewing the "blood for oil" bullshit?.
WMD, democracy for the middle east, fighting terrorist over there instead of here. Want to discuss 'bullshit'? Come on, that blood for oil crap is inconsequential compared to the actual bullshit given us as reasons for going to war,lol.
Incidentally, have you noticed oil company profits? or stock values?
Will & Eve said:
This assumes, without evidence, that there would have been no instability without the war. Saddam was being embargoed (supposedly, while liberal crooks in the U.N. were lining their pockets with under the table deals).
While you assume without evidence there would have been instability without the war. What's the difference?
The fact that the food for oil program was corrupt has not bearing on the stability of the mideast, WMD's or any of this. It's a red herring to avoid the real issues.
Will & Eve said:
No Crazy man in Iran, or Venezuela....no new dictator on the rise in Russia ....all would have been sweetness and light if we had just left Saddam alone.
And I say all this as someone who is, for the most part, an isolationist - but I can still recognize a weak argument..
Although I feel Russia is in actuality not much of a threat, now we're closer to the real foreign policy issues of import. Not crazy men in Iran or Venezuela, but the rise of powers, nations and cultures that we have to learn how to deal with in the near and long term future. Our neglect of real policy in South and Latin America, our weakened position, militarily and diplomatically in the middle east, the growing influence and flexing of China's economic muscle.
To me, these are the issues of real import going forward.
Anyone who votes party line (democrat or repub) in these times with the impending and REAL issues facing America does themselves and this country a disservice. Those that blindly argue for repubs after the past 8 years are only kidding themselves. Those who argue blindly for the democrats who can't reach a consensus on anything but try to be all things to all people are only kidding themselves. It's really time to shed this party crap and vote for the best people in govt., if you can find one,lol.
