Psychology of a Cuckold

[Doc in Cleveland]

..

My husband frequently said that I was trying to emasculate him. This is true to some degree. He gave a strong no-way to my actions. If he had gone along, and actually became excited by this, I can see, however unprofessional the assessment, that on some level he would be self-emasculating.

Kim ..

This is where I get a great deal of resistance from colleagues and they dismiss my findings as invalid. You've stumbled upon something very rooted in the core of the tenets of psychology.

Here is a very, very abridged version of my colleagues' perspective.

The id, ego and super-ego are three different parts of the psyche.

The id is instinct.

The ego is a realistic approach.

The super-ego is a moralistic approach.

My colleagues find the form of cuckolding discussed on this site, and that I have seen in my practice in increasing numbers, invalid. The reasons for this are what is presented in the id, the ego and the super-ego. They consider the sum to be invalid. They say this is a form of socially safe expressions of latent male homosexuality.

I disagree.

I see it in real life.

And, it's much more bizarre in real life than it is on these, or other, boards.

Without becoming too technical and going in to a 7,000 word explanation, it is my opinion ... opinion ... that emasculation must be witnessed by someone before it is valid. That's the entire point. Therefore, self-emasculation is an oxymoron. Again, without actually speaking of the literal term of taking a Ginsu knife to yourself (WAIT, HOW MUCH WOULD YOU PAY FOR ALL THIS??!!!).

I hope I am explaining myself and my perspective effectively. I try very hard not to get too technical and boring.

In your case, Kim .. your id was conflicting with your ego and super-ego. Your instinct was telling you that you wanted an Alpha male. Morally, you had conflicting feelings. And, of course, as you mentioned ... your ego .. the reality of the situation conflicted with the other two.

You basically were in a no-win situation, Kim. I wouldn't beat myself up about it too much. It's called being a human. Again, my advice .. just move in to the future in the most efficient way possible.

It is what it is.

Leave it alone or it is a long and tangled road you seek.

I make my house payment off of long and tangled roads.

Doc

..

 

[Custer Laststand]

Incidence of cuckolded white males vs. males of other flavors...

Doc,

Changing the subject slightly and returning to your post of 14 Dec. 2011:

The reason I am chasing after this is simply a matter of anomaly. Scientists love anomalies. I can only report to you what I have experienced. My sampling is geologically small yet vivid and numerous.

I suppose you must mean statistically small... I've never heard geologists expressing concern about the "geologic scale" of cuckolding (although, no doubt, some of them are cuckolds).

When you say "statistically small yet numerous," do you mean numerous from the point of view of your individual practice? I.e., do far more cuckolds seek you out than you would normally expect to see in a patient population like yours?

Regarding the characteristics you observe:

[They are] white males; far above average intellect; [and have] no common trauma from childhood from a maternal perspective.

Is it possible "intelligent" white male cuckolds are coming to see you because they're the subset of the population that thinks in terms paying a psychologist to listen to them when they have a personal problem they absolutely cannot discuss with friends, relatives, or co-workers (like their wives fucking other men), and they have health insurance to cover the cost? Or, alternatively, sufficient resources to pay for it out of pocket?

In other words, is it possible you're observing and treating a biased subsample of the male population?

I suggest this because statistical data indicate that cuckolding of husbands by their wives, as measured by the percentage of women bearing children not sired by their husband (or other long-term partner), increases as one moves down the socioeconomic scale. For some numbers on this, see:

Baker, Robin, Ph.D., 1996, Sperm Wars: The Science of Sex, BasicBooks, 319 pp. (hardcover),

in which he states on p. 124, in Chapt. 7 ("Shopping Around for Genes"):

"On average, about 10% of children are not sired by their supposed fathers. Some men, however, have a higher chance of being deceived in this way than others — and it is those of low wealth and status who fare worst. Actual figures range from 1% in high-status areas of the United States and Switzerland, to 5 to 6% for moderate-status males in the U.S. and Great Britain, to 10 to 30% for lower-status males in the U.S., Great Britain, and France. .... etc ...." [End of quote.]

Males low on the socioeconomic scales in western countries like the above tend to include (for better or worse) a higher proportion of men in racial groups other than white. This implies that non-white males in western societies are, on average, more heavily cuckolded by their wives than white males, who are more likely to have higher socioeconomic status.

Thus, regarding your comment:

.... No Latino male has ever expressed anything about a cuckold experience (as defined here .. obviously the wider definition is widely prevalent in society). No Black male has ever expressed anything approaching this subject matter to me. I am seeing white males with this anomaly.

The incidence of cuckolding among different racial groups — or more broadly, in different socioeconomic subsets of the population — cannot possibly be determined by counting the number of males who see psychologists because they're upset about their wives fucking other men. It can only be determined with DNA analyses of children and their supposed fathers throughout statistically-valid random samples of the subpopulations of interest.

BTW, even DNA analysis presumably yields estimates of cuckolding biased on the low side, because of the tendency of a significant percentage of women who fuck men other than their husbands or LTR partners to use birth control, to avoid bearing children not sired by their husbands or LTR partners.

—Custer

 

[Atlopencpl]

Good discussion of polyamory relationships was covered on ABC's Good Morning America just this morning. A woman, married, with a live-in lover, and their love child ... and all three adults discussed their relationship together. The name of the segment was "One Woman, Two Men, One Child ". One of the interesting bits of information was that this is a growing trend, with over 1 1/2 million couples practicing polyamory in the USA.

I looked for the link, but it wasn't up as of the end of the Good Morning America program. I'm sure there will be a link prior to the end of the day. Mac

saw the segment - good job other than tha anchors snickering at it. They just don't get it but it is good to get open relationships more in the mainstream.

 

[Doc in Cleveland]

..

.......... I suggest this because statistical data indicate that cuckolding of husbands by their wives, as measured by the percentage of women bearing children not sired by their husband ........... [extensive comments on the standard definition of cuckolding]

Again, we get in to a strange area of labels here.

Let me repeat, again and again, of course cuckolding has gone on since the beginning of time. Of course children carry different DNA than their marital fathers and on and on and on. And everything that entails from a scientific analysis perspective for all eternity in the history of homo sapiens. And possibly Neanderthals. It is unknown whether duck billed platypus females engage in cuckolding.

I was speaking specifically of the KIND of cuckolding discussed on this site.

We need a different word for this.

This isn't working.

Doc

..

 

[Custer Laststand]

Doc,

Again, we get into a strange area of labels here. Let me repeat, of course cuckolding has gone on since the beginning of time. Of course [some] children carry different DNA than their marital fathers, and so-on. And everything that entails from a scientific perspective in the history of homo sapiens. And possibly Neandertals.

It can now be said, and definitely Neandertals. See the 17 Dec. 2010 issue of Science, "Reading the Neandertal Genome," p. 1605, which notes:

"This year, researchers published a draft of the Neandertal nuclear genome .... For the first time, scientists could compare in detail the genomes of Neandertals and of modern humans. Reading this sequence, the researchers concluded that modern Europeans and Asians — but not Africans — have inherited between about 1% and 4% of their genes from Neandertals. Apparently, Neandertals interbred with modern humans after they left Africa at least 80,000 years ago ...."

The clear implication is that some homo sapien women, prior to 80,000 yrs ago, cuckolded their husbands by fucking Neandertal men. One can speculate their (presumably) homo sapien husbands found this distressing and may consequently have suffered psychological problems... but to no avail, since their wives found their Neandertal lovers sexy (and, perhaps, more macho).

As a consequence of this "cuckolding" among our ancestors, it's tempting to suspect those bearing more Neandertal genes (say, 4% vs. a mere 1%) are today's NFL and NHL players. But, that conclusion would be too hasty because of the "African vs. European and Asian" point noted above. (Joke... laugh here.)

It is unknown whether duck billed platypus females engage in cuckolding.

Almost certainly, they do. See:

“The Myth of Monogamy: Fidelity and Infidelity in Animals and People,” by David P. Barash, Ph.D., and Judith Eve Lipton, here:

http://www.amazon.com/Myth-Monogamy-Fidelity-Infidelity-Animals/dp/0716740044

(David Barash is a University of Washington zoologist and professor of psychology; Judith Lipton is a Seattle psychiatrist.)

I was speaking specifically of the KIND of cuckolding discussed on this site.

OK, ok... I see what you're saying. Not to be picky, but I don't think you've stated in this thread that your clients are psychologically distressed because their wives are fucking other men AND demanding they dress like sissies (or whatever) and accept humiliation (etc). Rather, you've said and/or implied... if I'm recalling this entire thread correctly... that your clients are distressed because their wives are fucking other men. That, of course, is straight-ahead cuckolding — not cuckolding, necessarily, in the "style" of some forum or other like this one (which actually seems quite varied).

—Custer

 

[Doc in Cleveland]

..



Very nice.

The lion's share of the distress comes not from the fact of their wife's are having sex with other men. They seek this out. In some cases, beg for it.

It is the disturbed and conflicted emotions they are having due to the voluntary cuckolding. As I said in a previous remark, this conflict comes, primarily, because of the conflict of the id and super-ego with the ego. Instinct, morals .. all in a nasty fight with this desire, this craving they continually have to be cuckolded.

That's a real over-simplification and generalization of everything I am seeing. There are wild swings on both sides. In fact, last year .. as I think I stated here .. somewhere .. the bull and the cuckold left the wife and now live together. Well, I suppose they do. After this action, the patient no longer sought therapy. His conflicts were resolved, I suppose.

I am enjoying this site more lately. I come hear quite often now and read a great deal. It doesn't matter to me if it is fantasy or real. I find it interesting why men need to express this in an open forum. And the shades and color of their expressions are illuminating to me.

In a nutshell, Custer .. these middle-aged white upper middle class American males are flat out terrified they might be homosexual because they crave it so deeply and even enjoy it.

The anvil weight of society's pressure .. it keeps gas in my Lotus.

Doc

..

 

[ou812rich]

Cuckolding is, pure and simple, a married woman have sex with a man who's not her husband. The gay, bi, S&M, domination, voyeur, etc. are not necessarily related to cuckolding. These are other fetishes.
In my opinion after reading the posts in these forums, many of the posters are gays using their wives in order to satisfy their cravings to suck cock. Others are voyeurs using their wives in order to satisfy their desire to watch other people have sex.

 

[mimi27406]

I think you are right ou812rich.

Cuckolding is, pure and simple, a married woman have sex with a man who's not her husband. The gay, bi, S&M, domination, voyeur, etc. are not necessarily related to cuckolding. These are other fetishes.
In my opinion after reading the posts in these forums, many of the posters are gays using their wives in order to satisfy their cravings to suck cock. Others are voyeurs using their wives in order to satisfy their desire to watch other people have sex.

Cuckolds do have common traits though, no two the same.

 

[Doc in Cleveland]

..

In my opinion after reading the posts in these forums, many of the posters are gays using their wives in order to satisfy their cravings to suck cock.

I listened to a colleague use 10,000 words and thirty minutes of my life to say what Rich said in one sentence.

That is the general consensus of voluntary cuckolding.

I tend to disagree.

Just an opinion but one that has caused me to be cast outside the mainstream in my profession.

Doc

..

 

[slaved]

I disagree too and strongly. But I do not doubt that this is the case for some cuckolds...not most...some. I'm sure these kinds of sexual proclivities come from different places in the mind for different people.

 

[Pinkyrod]

When there is NO foods and water around (say after a plane crashed in a tiny island), would you guys still want to fuck other people's wives, and vice versa?

 

[SammerSin]

Married women

Married women, What do you think?

 

[Mickle]

When there is NO foods and water around (say after a plane crashed in a tiny island), would you guys still want to fuck other people's wives, and vice versa?

No but I might eat a few wives!

 

[Pinkyrod]

No but I might eat a few wives!

I suppose you will eat the pussies first...lol

 

[Ladynsniffer]

First, let me say I find this to be an interesting thread.

Second, my opinion, as untrained and lacking of psychological professionalism and education as it may be, I get the basis of the emasculation part from the view of a non-professional.

My husband frequently said that I was trying to emasculate him. This is true to some degree. He gave a strong no-way to my actions. If he had gone along, and actually became excited by this, I can see, however unprofessional the assessment, that on some level he would be self-emasculating.

Again, this is based upon my untrained opinion and limited experience and what I view here on this site. That is, it seems like some men like to be emasculated and may even take steps to transform themselves, with the desire for hormones and so on, to make themselves less of a man.

One man will defend his masculinity while another may desire to lose his to some degree, even by his own choice. This is where I may view the "self-emasculation" part.

But again, I am not and do not claim to be a trained professional, nor am I calling anyone's view into question. I am just saying why I think there could be a self-emasculating component in some situations purely from the viewpoint of a non professional.

Hi Kim, always a pleasure to read your point of view.

Sometimes, we view the extreme situation in a couple's relationship and then try to generalize to the whole population. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way.

Every relationship has "give-ups" by each partner. Each partner wants to live life "their" way. It takes negotiation and usually a few arguments for the couple to resolve these differences. If a wife tells her husband he should clean the dishes after dinner and he tells her "No, that's women's work," there is likely to be a struggle over this issue. If, over time, the husband eventually gives in, does that make him emasculated?

Women, in my opinion, do try and "domesticate" men. Some men accept it easily while other struggle with it constantly. At some point, at the extreme end, people would view a domineering wife's actions as "hen pecking" or "she has his balls locked up." This would be an emasculating view of the husband. For most couples it is a give and take and either they work it out and compromise or end up divorced.

When it comes to sex, emotions run higher. My marriage is at one extreme, but I know most marriages are in the middle and a few are at the other end in which the husband is the dominant partner. In my case, I am completely emasculated (not feminized). By emasculated, I mean that my balls have been emotionally cut off. I am essentially a eunuch.

My wife has two sides to her personality.

She is oversexed and loves hard pounding sex with very well endowed men. When she has sex with her lover, it can go on for hours. They will have three or four rounds of fucking. They keep going until, in my words,they are fucked out and sex is the last thing on her mind for several hours.

Her Alpha male lovers never put up with her shit. When they have sex, his cock commands her attention. When he comes over, she's filled with cock lust which makes her willing to accommodate him in any way. When he is erect and is deep inside of her, she can't think of anything but his cock. After they are done and she has had many orgasms, she is purring like a kitten.

But, she has a dark side too. She has always had relationships with very submissive men. Ours has gone on for more than ten years. She adores my worshipful attention to her. She never has any interest in sex with me, prefers I wear my chastity device, and always has an endless list of "honey-do's" for me. When I bitch and complain that I want her participation in watching me jack off, she almost always falls asleep or starts thinking about "other things." Our relationship is much deeper than this but this is enough for now.

So, yes, I am, in my opinion, completely emasculated. We could've has this relationship hundreds of years ago when men were really castrated.

Sorry I ran on so long with this post. I was just trying to make the point that all relationship have a struggle for control. Some end up with a dominant female and the husband is emasculated. Most relationships are a compromise. Of course, some are at the other end with a dominant male partner.

marcus

 

[kimcarl]

Hi Kim, always a pleasure to read your point of view.

Sometimes, we view the extreme situation in a couple's relationship and then try to generalize to the whole population. Unfortunately, it doesn't always work that way.

Every relationship has "give-ups" by each partner. Each partner wants to live life "their" way. It takes negotiation and usually a few arguments for the couple to resolve these differences. If a wife tells her husband he should clean the dishes after dinner and he tells her "No, that's women's work," there is likely to be a struggle over this issue. If, over time, the husband eventually gives in, does that make him emasculated?

Women, in my opinion, do try and "domesticate" men. Some men accept it easily while other struggle with it constantly. At some point, at the extreme end, people would view a domineering wife's actions as "hen pecking" or "she has his balls locked up." This would be an emasculating view of the husband. For most couples it is a give and take and either they work it out and compromise or end up divorced.

When it comes to sex, emotions run higher. My marriage is at one extreme, but I know most marriages are in the middle and a few are at the other end in which the husband is the dominant partner. In my case, I am completely emasculated (not feminized). By emasculated, I mean that my balls have been emotionally cut off. I am essentially a eunuch.

My wife has two sides to her personality.

She is oversexed and loves hard pounding sex with very well endowed men. When she has sex with her lover, it can go on for hours. They will have three or four rounds of fucking. They keep going until, in my words,they are fucked out and sex is the last thing on her mind for several hours.

Her Alpha male lovers never put up with her shit. When they have sex, his cock commands her attention. When he comes over, she's filled with cock lust which makes her willing to accommodate him in any way. When he is erect and is deep inside of her, she can't think of anything but his cock. After they are done and she has had many orgasms, she is purring like a kitten.

But, she has a dark side too. She has always had relationships with very submissive men. Ours has gone on for more than ten years. She adores my worshipful attention to her. She never has any interest in sex with me, prefers I wear my chastity device, and always has an endless list of "honey-do's" for me. When I bitch and complain that I want her participation in watching me jack off, she almost always falls asleep or starts thinking about "other things." Our relationship is much deeper than this but this is enough for now.

So, yes, I am, in my opinion, completely emasculated. We could've has this relationship hundreds of years ago when men were really castrated.

Sorry I ran on so long with this post. I was just trying to make the point that all relationship have a struggle for control. Some end up with a dominant female and the husband is emasculated. Most relationships are a compromise. Of course, some are at the other end with a dominant male partner.

marcus

Thanks Marcus, I also enjoy reading your posts.

It's amazing how different people can be and view things. When I even mentioned having sex with another man my husband would completely lose interest in sex. It was like castration with words. However, he also talked about other woman and for some reason he thought this was okay. None of this on either side was talked about with evil intentions, at least not in earlier years, it was just conversation about our past. But it was obvious that ANY talk about another man, even when I talked about one with a small penis, he lost his interest in sex.

I told him one time I thought I had gotten pregnant just after high school. Even though that was years before I met him you would have thought I chopped his penis off with a knife. God forbid I would have ever had ANY other man's semen in me--ever.

 

[kimcarl]

PS--from my prior post. To be fair (something I am really trying to stick by) I also had some fairly hard reactions to my husbands talk of his prior women. One was not only attractive but stunning, and I would say most I knew about were attractive, and I carried some hard feelings about this, so we both had some issues.

Marcus, and interesting thing about me is I find the whole idea of going out and meeting men very scary. The very idea of going to a bar and experiencing that lifestyle scares the hell out of me.

 

[kimcarl]

..

I hope I am explaining myself and my perspective effectively. I try very hard not to get too technical and boring.

In your case, Kim .. your id was conflicting with your ego and super-ego. Your instinct was telling you that you wanted an Alpha male. Morally, you had conflicting feelings. And, of course, as you mentioned ... your ego .. the reality of the situation conflicted with the other two.

You basically were in a no-win situation, Kim. I wouldn't beat myself up about it too much. It's called being a human. Again, my advice .. just move in to the future in the most efficient way possible.

It is what it is.

Leave it alone or it is a long and tangled road you seek.

I make my house payment off of long and tangled roads.

Doc

..

Thank you, Doc. I understand what you are saying.

The holiday season was an interesting time.

I am trying to keep my head on straight about this. In the beginning, I went off the deep end, started seeing therapists (not a bad thing), posting my regret at any website I could find, but have started moving towards a more peaceful place. I seem to be feeling better.

My ex husband was around a lot during the holidays. God how I miss him! But again, I am really trying to keep my head on straight. We did have some interaction. He was hesitant but it did happen. I saw stars! I know I have a hell of a long way to go in whatever direction I take my life, but I feel improvement, so I will take this improvement and accept it and move forward with small steps towards full recovery.

 

[Custer Laststand]

Hypothetical answers to hypothetical question...

Pinkyrod,

Regarding your hypothetical situation:

When there is NO food and water available (say, after a plane crashed in a tiny island), would you guys still want to fuck other people's wives, and vice versa?

several answers are possible, depending on the outcome of the crash.

1) First, consider the happy situation where everyone on board survives without injury, and there are female survivors married (or otherwise attached) to an equal number of male survivors, plus additional male survivors who are single (or their wives weren't on the flight).

Then, the answer would be "yes." The married men with wives present would want to fuck the women married to other men (at least, those moderately attractive and/or who projected sexuality), as would the single men. But, not for long because without water, thirst soon becomes agonizing and thus first priority. Knowing they would would all die after several days to a week, preoccupation with the problem of somehow obtaining fresh water (via improvised distillation, for instance), and consideration by the survivors with whether they could drink small amounts of sea water with minimal ill effects, would soon replace interest in sex.

2) Second, consider the less happy situation where everyone on board survives but with injuries ranging from significant to severe. Then, the answer would be "no." Everyone would immediately be preoccupied with the problems of dealing with their injuries and (if feasible) the injuries of others. This would soon give way to preoccupation with the problem of dealing with that plus thirst.

3) Third, consider the very unhappy situation of all being killed except for a few severely-injured survivors. Then, the answer would also be "no."

Other answers can be imagined for outcomes somewhere in between these situations.

4) Finally, consider an outcome similar to the movie a while back about a FedEx pilot who survived when his airplane went down just off a remote tropical island — where, happily, water and food (from the natural vegetation and fish) were both available. Fortunately, an inflated soccer ball also survived the crash and drifted ashore. He was thus able to spend his spare time, of which he had plenty, talking to his soccer ball. Presumably during many... perhaps most... of his (admittedly one-sided) conversations he visualized his ball as the head and face of gorgeous highly-sexual women, and he verbally seduced her — but unfortunately, that couldn't go too far. (I don't remember the movie including this aspect of it, but hey... it was quite a while ago.)

—Custer

 

[Angevin]

When there is NO foods and water around (say after a plane crashed in a tiny island), would you guys still want to fuck other people's wives, and vice versa?