Finally

[SquirmingSub]

2wheel,

As Custer pointed out, your recent post (above) suggests rather strongly that your wife really doesn't want to date, let alone go to bed with, other men. I am sure that she has her own reason and that is a conversation that you may want to have with her.

Custer would suggest that maybe it is a self-image issue due to her current weight noted in the image that you posted although as we all know, there are men and woman of all shapes and sizes out there and everyone is interested in something. This may or may not be the case although it is not something you will know until you have spoken openly with your wife.

If indeed you find that she is interested in the lifestyle yet not wanting to make the leap due to weight, it would be a good idea to consider Custer's suggestions about dieting and exercising together as a couple. "A weight loss and exercise program of this nature, should your wife (with your support and participation) decide to carry it out, would likely improve her physical appearance and self-confidence, hence her attractiveness to other men, and — in addition — would have health benefits in a broad sense."

Good luck with your conversation and direction which may result from it.

 

[2wheel]

Custer & SquirmingSub

You might very be correct. She is not sensitive about her size but she is about her weight. I know kinda sounds silly. But she has no problem donning a bathing suit but at the MD she won't say her weight out loud or get on a scale with me there. As a note she's been overweight for quiet some time now, 20+ years. As a side note she doesn't dress in a manner to hide her weight/size in fact the favs in her wardrobe actually accentuates it.

However, I do think there might be other issues going on that I'm not privy to or aware of and to stretch it further, she might not be aware of either.

This is a woman who in her youth had hundreds of different partners.

Thanks for your continuing input and advice. For me this is uncharted waters.

 

[Custer Laststand]

[My wife] is not sensitive about her size, but she is [sensitive] about her weight. I know that sounds kinda silly.

Interesting. As you point out, that's clearly contradictory. But, it isn't unusual for people to know something while believing and/or asserting other things that contradict what they know. Perhaps your wife's primary awareness is that a woman of her height should not weigh more than _______ (fill in the blank), while she remains in a state of denial that size => weight.

As a note she's been overweight for quite some time now, 20+ years.

There's nothing unusual about that. I mean, hey... this is America. (I assume you're writing from somewhere in the U.S.)

As a side note, she doesn't dress in a manner to hide her weight and size. In fact, her wardrobe favorites actually accentuate that.

The idea that a woman can conceal being overweight by wearing certain styles of clothing is a fantasy promoted by those who sell such clothing. Perhaps your wife recognizes that obvious fantasy.

However, I do think there might be other issues going on that I'm not privy to or aware of. To stretch it further, she might not be aware them either.

Could be...

This is a woman who in her youth had hundreds of different partners.

That certainly seems relevant to her and your marital situation. The cultural expectation that married women will be sexually faithful to their husbands is very strong, though (regardless of reality). Perhaps your wife sensed, in her youth, that "proper people" disapproved of her licentious sexual behavior, and resolved... on marrying you... to dispense with all that and become a "respectable married woman."

Or perhaps one of her issues is, she's convinced that women are sexually unattractive when they're beyond a certain age — despite it being increasingly accepted that women attain peak sexuality in their 30's, while male sexuality peaks at about 18.

If your wife is beginning to experience menopause, or is beyond menopause (if you mentioned that, I missed it), that would certainly be relevant. Posts by others in this forum have indicated that some women lose their sexual desires completely at menopause, even if they were strongly sexual when they were younger, while other women maintain their sexual desires through and beyond menopause. My impression is, there's significant individual variability.

 

[2wheel]

This is a 2nd marriage for us both. We had a relationship during my 1st. Then we lived together for many years before she proposed. She claims she's in menopause for over 12 years now. Not sure whether that's the reason or the excuse (read as crutch/blame).

Not sure about the 'cultural expectation' thing is her bag.

Example one (pre-married). While I was still married to #1 she occasionally dated, as a side note, she said in her youth date meant sex, not sure in her later years this was the case. Anyway, she had a date planned. I told her that before they got out of the development where she lived, she was to have his cock out and jerk him off. The next day I asked if she did it, she of course.

Example two (post married). Sort version. I found a tube of lube buried in her trunk. I asked her about it, denial. My question continued for years. Told her all I want is the truth, whatever it may be. About 2 years ago she finally fessed up. She was pissed at me for something and took a FB. She said it was quite often, several times a week. She would have continued had I not found the lube. She didn't even remember what pissed her off. Mentioned it only one since then as a way of showing that honesty is important not the details. She denied doing it and denied telling me about it.

Go figure!

 

[Custer Laststand]

.... Example two (post married). Sort version. I found a tube of lube buried in her trunk. I asked her about it, denial. My question continued for years. Told her all I want is the truth, whatever it may be. About 2 years ago she finally fessed up. She was pissed at me for something and took a FB. She said it was quite often, several times a week. She would have continued had I not found the lube. She didn't even remember what pissed her off.

It seems unlikely that your wife would have ended her relationship with her fuck buddy merely because you found her lube. It seems more likely she would have hidden it more effectively — leaving it with her fuck buddy would have been the obvious choice — and continued her relationship with him.

[I?] mentioned it only one since then, as a way of showing [my wife] that honesty is important, not the details. She denied doing it and denied telling me about it.

Your wife telling you the truth, but only after sustained heavy pressure on your part, then later denying that she had a fuck buddy AND that she had told you the truth, sounds like hard-core lying. It may be worth noting that some people lie so habitually that they will do so even when it would obviously be to their advantage to tell the truth — so habitually that they lie without showing any of what many people think of as the obvious physiological signs of lying — or so I've read. You can find out more about this (if you're interested) by googling "studies of habitual liars."

From what you've said, it sounds like you can write off as a waste of time your efforts to persuade your wife to cuckold you openly. There appears to be a fairly high probability she has been cuckolding you for a long time and, like as not, continues to do so. If so, the reason your wife shows no interest in finding a lover may be, she already has one.

But, if you try to persuade your wife to openly tell you she's cuckolding you, because you're in favor of that and it will turn you on, she won't (as suggested by her past tendency to lie on that subject). Or, if she isn't cuckolding you now — although she has in the past — and you keep trying to persuade her to begin again but do it openly, then she'll also deny that she cuckolds you or wants to do so.

To put it more briefly: if you're in "habitual lying territory" in your relationship with your wife, as appears to be the case, your attempts to persuade her to openly cuckold you may be a fool's errand.

 

[2wheel]

Hi Custer,

The lie, the double down on the lie, the triple down on the lie. AND digging one's heels in no matter how absurd or implausible it becomes.

It's impossible to believe a liar. One must actually be in that situation to understand.

Per your suggestion I did spend some time online researching 'lying'. In particular https://www.truthaboutdeception.com/lying-and-deception/confronting-a-partner.html. It was eye opening to say the least.

Despite what some people say. There is no way to tell when your woman has been with another guy UNLESS she wants you to know.

And as much as I hate to say it I fear that much of what you have said is accurate, perceptive and true. I very well may be trying to get the elephant to dance.

 

[Custer Laststand]

Hi Custer...

Hey 2wheel...

The lie, the double down on the lie, the triple down on the lie. AND digging one's heels in no matter how absurd or implausible it becomes. It's impossible to believe a liar.

I think most would agree that's the definition of a liar — or, certainly, a large part of the definition.

One must actually be in that situation to understand.

I don't think so. It's actually quite easy to understand that situation in the abstract. In ambiguous cases where I suspect someone is lying, I handle it not by accusing them of lying (which would be inflammatory), or even commenting on their statement (usually), but rather by mentally noting they've said _______ (whatever the potential lie might be, fill in the blank). But, I don't accept it as "true" — rather, I view it as "possibly true, possibly not" — until I become aware of independent evidence indicating it's true (or false).

Per your suggestion I did spend some time online researching 'lying'. In particular https://www.truthaboutdeception.com/lying-and-deception/confronting-a-partner.html. It was eye opening to say the least.

Good. There have been studies of almost everything, certainly including lying, which is critically important in (for instance) crime investigations.

Despite what some people say, there is no way to tell when your woman has been with another guy UNLESS she wants you to know.

Fortunately, for men (and women) who actually do want to know, this assertion isn't true. Finding out whether someone's marital or LTR partner is sexually unfaithful is the bread and butter of private detective agencies. If you want to know badly enough to fork over the bucks to hire a private detective, he or she will tell you whether your wife is fucking another man (or men), and where she's doing it, and show you the evidence — probably in fairly short order.

If your wife had a lover or lovers in the past, but doesn't at present, and insists she has never fucked anyone but you since your marriage to her, then that (of course) would make the discovery process more difficult. A private detective would be able to tell you she isn't fucking anyone else at present, if that's the case, but uncovering and verifying past affairs would presumably take more time and effort.

There is probably some partial truth to your statement, however, in that there seems to be some agreement — from what I've read in this forum and elsewhere — that women are better than men at concealing their extramarital sexual liaisons.

As much as I hate to say it, I fear that much of what you have said is accurate, perceptive and true. I very well may be trying to get the elephant to dance.

Hm... well... it's good to hear you don't think my comments on your situation have been a waste of time (for both of us). Your view of your efforts to persuade your wife to openly fuck other men, and tell you about her 'outrageous' (but hot) extramarital sexual adventures, as 'trying to get an elephant to dance,' brings us back to my suggestion re. changing course and, instead, trying to persuade your wife to lose weight and improve her muscle tone. If you were to succeed at that, you would at least be "trying to persuade a graceful gazelle to dance."

And, other men — more than likely — would begin expressing their appreciation of her increasing attractiveness, a process that might start happening in the gym — thereby "putting the make" on your wife, and convincing her of her sexual attractiveness much more effectively than you ever could.

Incidentally, I don't think you've mentioned whether your wife fucks you — and if so, about how often — or keeps you permanently denied. If the latter, that would not necessarily imply she's fucking other men — it may merely imply she's decided she doesn't want sex anymore — but, whether your wife fucks you some of the time, or only rarely, or none of the time seems relevant to your situation.

 

[2wheel]

I view it as "possibly true, possibly not" until I become aware of independent evidence indicating it's true (or false).

I assume truth until it's been proven to be a lie. I am very trusting. A character flaw.



A private detective.

No need. I'm not trying to catch her. Most want to catch their spouses to lower the boom. I, on the other hand just want to know, and would encourage her to continue and expand her activities. As you know the only time I think I'm aware of she has admitted then recanted. Cant go back in time 5-6 years to find the truth. Even if we could there's no future in it.


persuade your wife to lose weight

She is very sensitive about her weight and that is a subject that only conjures up war. There's no future in it. Like and alcoholic, like a drug user, they actually need to understand that they have a problem and have the desire to change. She's not there.



Incidentally, I don't think you've mentioned whether your wife fucks you and if so, about how often or keeps you permanently denied. If the latter, that would not necessarily imply she's fucking other men it may merely imply she's decided she doesn't want sex anymore but, whether your wife fucks you some of the time, or only rarely, or none of the time seems relevant to your situation.

No she doesn't fuck me anymore. It's been years since my dick has been in her. To make matters worse constant rejection has had a psychological effect along with age causing some ED issues.

If she is fucking someone else that'd be Ok but I don't think she is.


So we had another go around, Sunday 1/10 (we had a house guest arrive today leaving on Wednesday):
She said she didn't want to use CL. So I created a profile on AFF. She wasn't happy about that either. Typical, mixed messages.

She tells me that she doesn't want to have sex with anyone other than me, I remind her that she doesn't have sex with me either. She says I never said that, I remind her that her actions don't match her words. So I pose the question. OK, you say you don't want to have sex with other men, and you don't have sex with me. Is it that you don't want to have sex at all. She says no. The last question I have is do you want to have sex with women. Absolute no she says.

This has become a bit if a Roman Deadlock.

So I tell her that if she doesn't start coming across I want out, divorce. Not the 1st time I've suggested that but this is the 1st time I actually used the D word.

I tell her she has 3 options:
1 When our guest leaves we can file for divorce
2 She can go with her own plan, but it there's no success by the EOM we're done and Divorce will be the result.
3 My 3 part plan:
Part 1 We have sex 3 times a week wether she's in the mood or not. And she must also be an active not passive participant and at times initiate it.
Part 2 I will leave her notes for her to play. She must follow them and not to lie about it, and I tell her I'll know if she does.
Part 3 We get back on the threesome band wagon. As an aside. I had originally outlined Part 3 to be her and someone else with me there but not a part, she nixed that and wanted me included, hence, the threesome.


I also tell her she has until our guest leaves to make a decision. She says if she selects option 3. She wants to find the 3rd. I am surprised and get a woody. I tell her OK but she has a 2 week window which she agrees to. Understand the last time it was in her ballpark, that was to find a suitable 3rd on-line, she couldn't do it. So here we are again only this item I have put time limits.

The question that begs itself to be asked is. Is she fucking someone already, so it would be easy to find a 3rd as he has already been picked and tested? If the answer is yes, that's be OK. If not, I can't possible conjure up her methodology for a 3rd.


Yesterday our guest left at about 9:30. At 10:00 I asked her the decision, she opted for option 3. I told her OK, the clock is ticking.

 

[TomPal]

You guys rock and are hott! Cheers

 

[2wheel]

Thankx.

 

[Custer Laststand]

Telling your wife you're going to divorce her if she doesn't have 3-some sex including you 3 times a week — or fuck you 3 times a week, sometimes initiating and not being passive about it — sounds sort of extreme.

But, given her history of declining to tell you the truth about her past extramarital relationships (during her marriage with you), despite you telling her it's OK for her to fuck other men and encouraging her to take lovers, and her more recent lapse into apparent long-term sexual passivity with continued evasiveness, maybe it really is your only remaining option.

Will look forward to hearing how it works out. This should, as you mentioned, yield evidence of whether your wife does or does not have a lover at present — or, if not at present, whether there is someone she's been fucking recently enough that she can easily get in touch with him for some renewed action.

 

[2wheel]

The same thing has been tried over and over to get things on track. It is the truism of 'doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different a result'.

I had hit my limit of denial, no intimacy, of any kind for way too long. It's lonely out there. Giving her the opportunity over and over all being squandered. I need to change my life even if that means changing my wife.

Yes, it is extreme. My plan is comprehensive to get her back on track. If she can't step up to the plate, I have no desire to continue. Believe it or not this isn't about sex, it's about intimacy. Yes, sex is intimacy.

 

[Saraha]

The same thing has been tried over and over to get things on track. It is the truism of 'doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different a result'.

I had hit my limit of denial, no intimacy, of any kind for way too long. It's lonely out there. Giving her the opportunity over and over all being squandered. I need to change my life even if that means changing my wife.

Yes, it is extreme. My plan is comprehensive to get her back on track. If she can't step up to the plate, I have no desire to continue. Believe it or not this isn't about sex, it's about intimacy. Yes, sex is intimacy.

Makes friends with a hypnotist, and learn how to ease your wife back on track in a nice, gentle and dignified way.

If you allow yourself to be hypnotised to become a better husband, your body language will change, and the dynamics of your marriage will change.

 

[Custer Laststand]

I need to change my life even if that means changing my wife.

Sometimes one is reduced to that as the only workable alternative.

Yes, it is extreme. My plan is comprehensive to get her back on track. If she can't step up to the plate, I have no desire to continue. Believe it or not, this isn't about sex, it's about intimacy. And yes, sex is intimacy.

I understand that...

 

[2wheel]

Well the 2 weeks has arrived. I had suspected that she had someone already in mind, in seems that I was wrong, or she has yet to show her hand. I think the former rather than the latter.

I asked her what her methodology was to find someone. She said she's been looking, Against my better judgment and desire to know I didn't delve deeper for fear of screwing the pooch by either the full court press or force her to lie. As an aside she hates to be questioned on or about anything.

So tonight I said let's spend some time on-line looking for candidates. I had already subscribed to AFF expecting her failure. So there was a list waiting of us. She didn't object and readily looked with me. After about 45 minutes she reached her limit and was too tired to continue looking and we ended the session without any picks, I said next time we do this earlier in the day.

Then she surprised me by saying that next Friday night she was going out with a female friend of ours to local joint. That she still wants to find someone on her own. It is a location that a single male friend of ours said he gets a lot of hookups. She had a bit of a 'cat that swallowed the canary' grin. I guess this is what any cuckold goes through at the beginning: trepidation, doubt, excitement, anticipation. I reminded her that this was to be private, a secret between us, and asked how she could do that with our friend in tow She said she is cool. We have socialized with her and her SO on several occasions. No, he holds no interest for her, I mean actually ZERO interest. A little after I asked her how that would work, she said she still wanted to find her own. Again I let it go! She doesn't understand the titillation.

Tomorrow I'm gonna try earlier in the day to go online and press a bit more to actually select a candidate. I foresee her pressing her own search, which I'm OK with, but expect to reaffirm that and tell her we can do both.

 

[Saraha]

I spend a lot of time with some of the most dangerous creatures on the planet, but because I don't have any fear, they don't attack me. Fear is a weakness and a threat.

I am not a threat to them, so they have no desire to kill and eat me.

Predators attack animals exhibiting weakness or fear - it is connected with a natural culling of survival of the fittest.

Birds that are injured or too weak to migrate, are usually killed so they can't take place in the migration.

If I began to dislike living in the jungle, the animals would kill me without hesitation, because only the strongest and bravest genes are meant to survive in the scheme of things.

Humans have a pecking order, and some individuals walk all over others, BECAUSE THEY CAN.

When you change your beliefs, you change your position on the pecking order of life, and you get new things to enjoy.

Indigo Mind Labs have some interesting mp3's, and if you follow the instructions correctly, your relationships can do cartwheels after a few months. It is worthwhile checking out the titles.

If you fail to follow the instructions precisely, you won't get the results that YOU COULD HAVE.

Indigo has a 100% money back guarantee. If you don't get the results after using their products for a few months, they will give you an instant refund. You have a year to ask for a refund, unlike most companies only offering 30-60 days.

 

[2wheel]

I'm sure this is wise advice for Vanilla Joe. He is not me.

I can be either predator or prey, depending upon the circumstance, a chameleon. I can comfortably lead or follow, and do both each day.

-----------------------

Yesterday, earlier as I planned, we looked at responses to our AFF presence. She did give several definite 'NOs' and several '?'. I told her that I thought she was dissecting every word in their profile to find reasons to NOT select rather than TO select, even looking at their Astrological sign, WTF. In all these years she has never expressed an interest in Astrological signs and/or compatibility.

I also told her she was giving mixed messages, she said I was wrong, so I gave a few examples:
She rules out anyone in our geo area - but Friday she's going to a local pickup spot = I asked who does she think goes there.
She rules out anyone under 45 - but Friday she's going to a local pickup spot that she got from someone our age which has a lot of people from our large community then follows up by saying that there will be younger people their as well.

She says nothing, silence for what seems like an eternity. Then she says set up a meeting with the '?' guys. I told her I would not send anything until she reads at it first. She says it'll only be to meet. I mention the elephant in the room, "if she likes him might she take it further on meeting day", she says no, then pause, followed by maybe.

 

[2wheel]

Just wanted to add. Last night was the 1st time we had sex since August 2015.

She surprised me by taking her toys and playing. I touched her and asked if she wanted me to leave her alone, She said no.

Sorry for the quality, they are screen captures from a hidden infrared camera.

1st pic - her playing - glass dildo and Magic Wand
2nd pic - me to licking her clit at her request
3rd pic - sucking my cock while she plays

 

[2wheel]

I wrote a response to 4 of those who showed an interest in us, her "?" guys. Only 1 responded with continued interest to set up a meet, she gave me strict criteria of day & time to meet and I sent an e-mail. This Sunday with an alternate of Tuesday.

I keep getting mixed messages: I say let's look at the candidates responses. she says OK with great enthusiasm in her voice but it takes over an hour to do so.

We look at those that match our criteria. Most profile pics are dick pics, 49 matches. She says they're all dick pics, she needs a face pic. I ask her if there's any I should drill down on to see if there are any face pics in their album, she says no. I as if I should e-mail asking for a face pic, she again says no.

I remind her this is about sex not a relationship, that she should judge what SEEMS will be sexually satisfying then look at the face. It ends in us having words, again, not because of this but because of her communication skills or lack thereof.

When things calm down I try and broach her upcoming Friday endeavor. I remind her that our personal life is not her friends business and that because they both have estrogen that doesn't make our private life a joint discussion. I get the feeling she has already let the cat out of the bag, I don't ask because she is prone to lying anyway.

We'll soon see how things go.

Oh yeah, she absolutely nothing will happen on our 1st meet. I draw the similarity with Friday and try to get a confirmation of the same. Grunts, shoulder shrugs, mumbles, but no real answer. I let it go as I see a real donnybrook looming.

 

[Custer Laststand]

Just wanted to add. Last night was the 1st time we had sex since August 2015.

Sounds like progress (sort of). As I recall, your stipulation was, you wanted sex with or otherwise from your wife three times a week. It could be:

1) sex with you; or

2) sex with another man with you watching; or

3) sex with another man with you participating.

Given that your wife has not done (2) or (3), has she been meeting the terms of your request via (1) — fucking you three times a week...?