pimp you agree and disagree with my basic premise all in same statements here. it takes a whole organization. Gibbs had it once, doesnt now (or maybe Snyder is getting out of the way finally???). When he started in Cleve. you could say Model was stable and he won and made playoffs. when instability happened it all crumbled. Does he deserve blame for that absolutely too. but then is Gibbs a idiot cause the skins sucked last year? def not. The Pats were nothing before he got there. Had he gone to the Jets he certainly could have won there too. Parcells had them in playoffs and he was going to take over a much better situation than he did in NE. No coach wins without talent, and i dont buy youre argument about the skins lack of talent under Gibbs, or the Pats abundance. The coaches must get credit or partial for assembling that talent and winning with it. The bottom line is always the bottome line and you cant take away 3 superbowl wins and being close every other year..in the free agency era. None of the Mt. Rushmore of coaches had to deal with salary cap issues, nor has any other team other than maybe Steelers and lately Colts with Manning as QB had this long a run of success in this era. Also you forgot Lombardi. also i like youre list above, but i dont consider Ditka worthy of being on it. Id replace him with Holmgren or Tom Flores. Im not one of those that thinks you only have to win the big one to be considered great (reeves/levy/or say don coreil (cards and chargers) Also Belecheater never had Curtis Martin btw, and i remember a pretty good freak named Riggins, also Charles Mann, and Monk should def be in HOF its rediculous he isnt.
this thread is about FOOTBALL
- Thread starterPooch
- Start date
it is very much like that verses guys just holding on to each other until the ball squirts out and then they try to tackle him. but you forgot the part about the excitement. but im not here to come down on rugby its a fine game, I have played before, and had some nice bruises to show for it so i respect anybody who plays it. So who will win the current World Cup, I c the USA has lost to Tonga. who are the world powers in Rugby? USA certainly isnt.
The difference I had hoped to make or point out is that while organizational help is paramount, so is a roster of talented players. The Pats were not "nothing", as you say, when Belechick got there. Parcells left him a very full cupboard and a team that was in the Super Bowl just two years prior. He has also been fortunate in the regard that he has had to endure very little injury problems with his team, especially to key positional players. Gibbs last year had to deal with virtually all of his most important players being hurt at one time or another and thus the worst season of his career. Just the year before he had gotten the Redskins back to the playoffs for the first time in years and in only his 2nd season back after 15 years away from the game.
And while none of the coaches I mentioned had the salary cap issue to deal with they had other problems that today’s coaches don’t face. Lack of money, roster depth, less talented players, less parity (which is both a positive & negative-they had more easy games but also tougher to crack the upper echelon) and a whole host of other issues. Look, I’m not discounting Belechick’s accomplishments. I’m just saying he lucked into a position that proved very beneficial for him and that his success is just as much a product of other factors as it is his coaching. Had he not gone to New England where the pieces were in place and instead gone to the Lions would his legacy and accomplishment have been the same? I think we all know the answer to that (and yes, I do think Gibbs could turn around a perennial loser like the Lions before Belechick could).
And you could be right about Ditka not meriting inclusion on that list but neither does Tom Flores. I’d include Bum Phillips, Chuck Knox and Tony Dungy before I would Flores. And don’t get me started on why Art Monk is not in the Hall of Fame or my head will explode. To me the HOF lost all of its credibility by excluding him and is not even a viable entity to represent football greatness without his induction. Not when you elect Lynn Swann (who Monk as more than DOUBLE the catches of) or a coke-head like Michael Irvin (although I am glad to see Irvin seems to have turned his life around).
For the first player in NFL history to catch 100 passes in a season (106 in 1984), who held the record for consecutive games with a reception for awhile, who won 3 super bowl rings, who had nearly 1,000 catches for his career (5th all-time in that category with 941) and who never caused a hint of trouble and was the epitome of class both on and off the field, to continually be omitted, is a travesty of justice of epic proportions and the HOF election committee should be embarrassed and ashamed. It’s a joke. A sick one.
And while none of the coaches I mentioned had the salary cap issue to deal with they had other problems that today’s coaches don’t face. Lack of money, roster depth, less talented players, less parity (which is both a positive & negative-they had more easy games but also tougher to crack the upper echelon) and a whole host of other issues. Look, I’m not discounting Belechick’s accomplishments. I’m just saying he lucked into a position that proved very beneficial for him and that his success is just as much a product of other factors as it is his coaching. Had he not gone to New England where the pieces were in place and instead gone to the Lions would his legacy and accomplishment have been the same? I think we all know the answer to that (and yes, I do think Gibbs could turn around a perennial loser like the Lions before Belechick could).
And you could be right about Ditka not meriting inclusion on that list but neither does Tom Flores. I’d include Bum Phillips, Chuck Knox and Tony Dungy before I would Flores. And don’t get me started on why Art Monk is not in the Hall of Fame or my head will explode. To me the HOF lost all of its credibility by excluding him and is not even a viable entity to represent football greatness without his induction. Not when you elect Lynn Swann (who Monk as more than DOUBLE the catches of) or a coke-head like Michael Irvin (although I am glad to see Irvin seems to have turned his life around).
For the first player in NFL history to catch 100 passes in a season (106 in 1984), who held the record for consecutive games with a reception for awhile, who won 3 super bowl rings, who had nearly 1,000 catches for his career (5th all-time in that category with 941) and who never caused a hint of trouble and was the epitome of class both on and off the field, to continually be omitted, is a travesty of justice of epic proportions and the HOF election committee should be embarrassed and ashamed. It’s a joke. A sick one.
i been stating monks case for years. now you have youre facts wrong pimp. Parcellls left the Pats..Pete Carrol i believe took over and they tanked. Parcells went to jets few years later...when he left, Belechik went to NE. so the talent was mostly gone and he built it back up. Of course you think Oden was better he from Ohio...yes im in texas but im a NJ boy...but injury or not you will c how dominant Durant will be...he has Kobe like explosion, NBA 3 point range, and Garnet length Oden has upside hopefully he will recover and his injury takes 2 years to comeback from completely same thing that amare stottlemeyer had and it wasnt till this past year he got his jump back. i like oden i pray he isnt another sam bowie.
Well...You can argue from now to eternity on whose the best ever but the fact is it's all a matter of opinion. There's no human being that ever lived smart enough to caculate what each of those guys whould have done if they were in the other's position. For us to be able to say whose the best is like judging which girl is the prettiest in the Miss Universe peagent.
Ha!
Obviously, Belechick could turn around any team what with his staff filming the signals of the opponents coaches on the sidelines i.e. Jets game on Sunday! HA! Seriously, it takes a top notch program from the front office through the coaches and players to win. Dan Snyder seems like a little prick and I wonder how long Gibbs' leash is now. The Redskins had their run many times over the years and had great teams but now they are nothing more than the Deadskins, Foreskins whatever. Oh, excuse me Pimp, I forgot you were there! You are a self proclaime dliberal as I remember so please tell me have you ever thought that the Redskins should change their name to the Washington Native Americans? Sorry, but I had to be politically correct in conversing with you. GO STEELERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! buffalo, you're next!
pimpology101 said:
Obviously, Belechick could turn around any team what with his staff filming the signals of the opponents coaches on the sidelines i.e. Jets game on Sunday! HA! Seriously, it takes a top notch program from the front office through the coaches and players to win. Dan Snyder seems like a little prick and I wonder how long Gibbs' leash is now. The Redskins had their run many times over the years and had great teams but now they are nothing more than the Deadskins, Foreskins whatever. Oh, excuse me Pimp, I forgot you were there! You are a self proclaime dliberal as I remember so please tell me have you ever thought that the Redskins should change their name to the Washington Native Americans? Sorry, but I had to be politically correct in conversing with you. GO STEELERS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! buffalo, you're next!
I may have gotten the chronology wrong between Parcells and Belechick but not the facts. When Bill got there he inherited a team that was in the Super Bowl in 1996 and had a lot of talent left over on the roster he inherited. That's fact and was my point.
Oden went to Ohio State but is actually from Indiana. I think Durant will be a superstar and an all-NBA player. I just think when you have a 19 year old phenom who is 7 feet tall he is the wiser draft pick. Dominant centers are very rare (the last one was Shaq and he came into the league 15 years ago).
Oden's offensive skills are raw but impressive. Once he hones them he will be unstoppable. He's already dominant on the glass and a defensive force. You build a team around an Oden with complimentary pieces like a Durant. Injuries happen and could befall Durant just as easily (especially as slight as he is). They will both be awesome pros.
Oden went to Ohio State but is actually from Indiana. I think Durant will be a superstar and an all-NBA player. I just think when you have a 19 year old phenom who is 7 feet tall he is the wiser draft pick. Dominant centers are very rare (the last one was Shaq and he came into the league 15 years ago).
Oden's offensive skills are raw but impressive. Once he hones them he will be unstoppable. He's already dominant on the glass and a defensive force. You build a team around an Oden with complimentary pieces like a Durant. Injuries happen and could befall Durant just as easily (especially as slight as he is). They will both be awesome pros.
you can build championships around superstar non centers, nba is a superstar league, but the Big Man only comes around so i understand them taking him 1, and he is amazing talent too..but has showed no outside shot and has to learn to play with his back to the basket. He does have good skills with ball though, and defensively he should be dominant. however if he loses a step or explosiveness jumping, now, he will be just an average center. just saw some report on microfracture surgury and it wasnt pretty. best thing he has going for him is that he is only 19 (unless he really is 25 lol) athletes who had that surgury: Terrel Davis - career ruined, Jamal Mashburn -lost his explosiveness, Jason Kidd - lost step but his game is still there not predicated on jumping, Chris Webber - see mashburn, allen houston - same (trying to comeback again) , amare stottlemeyer..seems to have recovered was definitely not same first year, but looked good again last year - he was young too when had surgury so hopefully Oden will recover...Portland is saying right things but they got to be scared to death..time will tell I am rooting for him.
every great center in recent years cept shaq....specially now they can zone...centers are taken away from basket at times to open up the floor and if he cant knock down a 12-15 footer that will be his achillies, although he still will be great player if he can jump/move. exs..olajuwan, ewing, duncan, d. robinson and Yao now also.. rockets dump into him and often move him away to open for mcgrady
The players you mention were out of position forwards except for Yao and the Admiral. Akeem was a true forward and so is Duncan. Oden is a true center in the tradition of a Chamberlain, Jabbar, Shaq, Mikan. He's got a nice hook shot and post moves. Anyone who can shoot 67% on free throws with their non-shooting hand can knock down a 12 footer occasionally which he won't need or even try often. Most of his points will come on putbacks, dunk and 5-8 footers.
you make all good points, but i never been one to differentiate the positions. like a 1 and 2 as they call them now. Dont forget Walton (another of Portlands injury plagued centers) Ewing was def a true center, although he became a great jump shooter. He also had no offensive game coming out of college and he is who i compared Oden too. I do hope Oden recovers fully and becomes great I really do. I just think Durant will be the very best player in the league in 3 years, period. I have to latch on to the Rockets cause im stuck being a Knicks fan, and you know that is no fun.
Well it seems I always disagree with you and I hate to always take an oppositional viewpoint but there's no way Durant will be the very best player in the league in three years time. Not with Dwayne Wade, Kobe and LeBron all still in their prime. LeBron James will be the best player in the NBA for the next ten years barring injury.
I really don't care much at all for the NBA and haven't really since Dr. J retired (I much prefer the college game). I did enjoy it some after that (until Barkley left). Now it's pretty much a watered down league with nothing but thugs and prima donnas. I guess if I had to choose a team to root for it would be the Cavs because of LeBron.
I really don't care much at all for the NBA and haven't really since Dr. J retired (I much prefer the college game). I did enjoy it some after that (until Barkley left). Now it's pretty much a watered down league with nothing but thugs and prima donnas. I guess if I had to choose a team to root for it would be the Cavs because of LeBron.
pimp if we didnt have opposite viewpts what fun would it be? this certainly beats arguing about cucks doesnt it? I never been in a sports chatroom, and since moving from NJ have few friends to talk sports with so i find this refreshing. To be honest, I offered this Oden/Durant debate cause i knew you would back Oden! But seriously, I look at Durants size 6-10, his rebounding abiliity (over 10/game in college even as a twig), his speed and explosion (equal to labron), shot blocking ability (his wingspan is amazing) his shooting range (better than Labron), and I see a combo of Michael Jordan and Garnett. You will see that Durant will be unguardable, and when he puts on some muscle forget about it. Labron was 3rd best player in league last year (kobe and duncan ..least in playoffs he coasts in reg season now), but will be def 1 or 2 in another year or 2 (when Kobe loses step).....his only weakness is the foul line, and he isnt exactly a defensive stopper (as is Kobe), and also his lack of support on his roster. Labron is amazing no doubt. To be honest I follow all the sports more than i actually watch the games now. The NBA games are mostly boring, and way too many teams make playoffs. I dont let prima donnas stop me from my enjoyment..they are in all sports and aspects of society, think you said something bout that youreself. With the NCAA tourney the regular season mean virtually nothing and I find those games boring too now. Baseball and Hockey prob have fewest a-holes, but i like all sports. I'm looking forward to Yanks vs. Red Sox this weekend, and especially the Clemens vs. Shilling matchup on Sun (now there are 2 prima donnas!!!!) but they can throw the pill.
eagles are home they should be favored but by 7 points (thats line i just saw) ..mule i dont gamble on football but i would take the skins and the points hell cinci is only 7 pts fav over cleveland id be all over cinci on that one, and the bois i know you gonna lay 3.5 over the fins...just cause you have to you bleed blue and stars....i think cowboys win on last min field goal and dont cover. my big upset pic..take texans over carolina just a hunch that texans are team on the upswing and carolina overated again.
That’s true….maybe we’re the Cavern’s version of Skip Bayless (can’t stand) and Woody Page (love to death)! And it damn sure beats talking about freakin’ cucks!! LOL
I love to talk period, but especially about sports and it is enjoyable as I have few outlets to do so myself.
And as far as Durant goes…….he’ll be playing with players his equal now and not people he was leaps and bounds better than in college. His rebounding will not be as good as it was in college until and if he adds bulk and muscle. Until he does so he’ll get pushed around underneath and will likely be a somewhat one dimensional perimeter player. But, in time, he will be a Garnett type player with better shooting skills and a top 5-10 player in the league.
You may say LeBron was the third best player in the league but I say he was the best. No one does more for his team than LeBron and he’s not a selfish, me-oriented player like Kobe. LeBron gets his teammates involved and shares the ball. Kobe wouldn’t know an assist if it bit him on the ass. Duncan is a great player but has limited skills himself. He shoots free-throws poorly too (LeBron did make 70%). Plus he’s slow and aging. Kobe has the best overall game if he just wasn’t such a terrible teammate and ball hog. I think Durant will be great, don’t get me wrong, but even Melo may be better. Don’t forget, no one in league history, not even Michael, has done what LeBron has. Only Oscar Robertson compiled similar numbers. Keep in mind LeBron is barely 22 years old. He’d just now be coming out of college.
I follow the big three sports (football, baseball and basketball) and some tennis. I rarely watch the NBA unless it’s the Cavs or the playoffs. I am far more entrenched in the college game (GO UK; I BLEED BLUE, BABY!!!) and love the regular season out-of-conference games between big time schools. And while I’m a die-hard Redskin fan, I admittedly prefer college football to the NFL ; it’s just more pure and emotionally charged. I follow tennis to a small degree also but it’s getting harder to do so with all my old favorites gone from the sport and no Americans to challenge Federer.
I too will be watching the Sawx/Yankmees clash this weekend with great interest. I’ll be hoping the Sawx can bury the Pukestripes and salt away the division. I hated Clemens at one time then grew to love him through the years, respecting his work ethic and marveling at his prowess. He lost a bit of the adoration I’d gained for him when he signed with the Bronx bums, but I still root for him to win the starts he makes (except against Boston). I love Schilling too and hope he pitches another 2-3 years. I’m rooting hard for the Cubbies to win the NL central and, somehow, some way, make it a Sawx/Cubbies world series like we should have had in ‘04. More likely it’ll be Boston and the Mets in a throwback of the 1986 series. I’d not care which team won in a Cubs/Boston series but would have to root for the Red Sox against the Mets (although I like Glavine, Wright and Reyes and even Delgado & Beltran to a degree). Baseball will never be the same for me as when I was a kid and grew up watching the best team ever assembled: the Big Red Machine!! Man, I miss those days! Johnny Bench remains to this day my all-time favorite baseball player.
I love to talk period, but especially about sports and it is enjoyable as I have few outlets to do so myself.
And as far as Durant goes…….he’ll be playing with players his equal now and not people he was leaps and bounds better than in college. His rebounding will not be as good as it was in college until and if he adds bulk and muscle. Until he does so he’ll get pushed around underneath and will likely be a somewhat one dimensional perimeter player. But, in time, he will be a Garnett type player with better shooting skills and a top 5-10 player in the league.
You may say LeBron was the third best player in the league but I say he was the best. No one does more for his team than LeBron and he’s not a selfish, me-oriented player like Kobe. LeBron gets his teammates involved and shares the ball. Kobe wouldn’t know an assist if it bit him on the ass. Duncan is a great player but has limited skills himself. He shoots free-throws poorly too (LeBron did make 70%). Plus he’s slow and aging. Kobe has the best overall game if he just wasn’t such a terrible teammate and ball hog. I think Durant will be great, don’t get me wrong, but even Melo may be better. Don’t forget, no one in league history, not even Michael, has done what LeBron has. Only Oscar Robertson compiled similar numbers. Keep in mind LeBron is barely 22 years old. He’d just now be coming out of college.
I follow the big three sports (football, baseball and basketball) and some tennis. I rarely watch the NBA unless it’s the Cavs or the playoffs. I am far more entrenched in the college game (GO UK; I BLEED BLUE, BABY!!!) and love the regular season out-of-conference games between big time schools. And while I’m a die-hard Redskin fan, I admittedly prefer college football to the NFL ; it’s just more pure and emotionally charged. I follow tennis to a small degree also but it’s getting harder to do so with all my old favorites gone from the sport and no Americans to challenge Federer.
I too will be watching the Sawx/Yankmees clash this weekend with great interest. I’ll be hoping the Sawx can bury the Pukestripes and salt away the division. I hated Clemens at one time then grew to love him through the years, respecting his work ethic and marveling at his prowess. He lost a bit of the adoration I’d gained for him when he signed with the Bronx bums, but I still root for him to win the starts he makes (except against Boston). I love Schilling too and hope he pitches another 2-3 years. I’m rooting hard for the Cubbies to win the NL central and, somehow, some way, make it a Sawx/Cubbies world series like we should have had in ‘04. More likely it’ll be Boston and the Mets in a throwback of the 1986 series. I’d not care which team won in a Cubs/Boston series but would have to root for the Red Sox against the Mets (although I like Glavine, Wright and Reyes and even Delgado & Beltran to a degree). Baseball will never be the same for me as when I was a kid and grew up watching the best team ever assembled: the Big Red Machine!! Man, I miss those days! Johnny Bench remains to this day my all-time favorite baseball player.
